Originally Posted By: 49er
td,
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I've never read anything published by QDMA that promoted indiscriminately killing does. Everything I have read published by QDMA regarding killing does has addressed the importance of site specific rules as well as the down side of killing only mature does or only fawns. In fact pick up the Oct. issue and it specifically addresses this. I don't have a dog in the fight, but I read their magazines and what they say and what you say the say seem to usually be two different things.


I haven't read QDMA literature much since I pulled out back in '04 when they changed from their philosophy of voluntary constraint in the killing of bucks to pushing for statewide regulations. In the meetings I attended back then, Brian Murphy regularly stated that the best does to kill were the first ones to present a shot. That's the defintion of indiscriminate killing of does as I see it. If that has changed, it was a needed change IMO.

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You are probably correct about there being a down side to only targeting the best bucks/ high grading, but what are the down sides of targeting only mature bucks?


Your QDMA literature should help you understand the benefits of having mature bucks before and during the breeding season. The down side of targeting only those mature bucks is that you are removing them and upsetting their social hieracrchies at exactly the time they are said to be the most beneficial. That may help explain the more defined rutting activity that qdm claims it creates. But does that activity indicate that more stress has been created by the voids that are created in the social orders, thereby leading to higher rates of post-rut mortality in the mature bucks that are left to sort out the disorder that has been created by the hunters before and during the breeding period?

If a hunter chooses to shoot a "cull" buck, chances are less that such a buck held a very high position in the established male hierarchy. Less disorder is created than if a higher quality buck was chosen and the genes of the "cull" buck are going into the freezer instead of into the new fawn that is fathered by the higher quality buck.

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Lord knows no one is going to kill a high percentage of them anyway so if you allow your bucks to get older you are also allowing most of them to escape being killed by a hunter and so there will always be a good percentage of 4+ year old deer on the property.


All property regardless of hunting pressure and population density?

You know it's not wise to make such an assumption. Without carefully considering the specific conditions on the property, you may be leaving a void at the top of the male hierarchy that is needed for your goals to be reached.

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You are implying that if you target mature deer in year 1 then in year 2 there will be minimal mature bucks left to breed, so in year 3 most does are bred by yearling bucks. That isn't the way it really works.


Let's see how it works:

5000 acres (approx. 8 sq. miles)

Population density is 20 deer per sq. mile. (20x8 = 160 deer)

Sex ratio is 3:1 (40 bucks, 120 does)

Percent of mature bucks 3+ = .45 (18 bucks)

Let's call it like this on the bucks we have to start with:

2 bucks 6.5 yrs. old
6 bucks 5.5 yrs. old
5 bucks 4.5 yrs. old
5 bucks 3.5 yrs. old

Goal is 4+ yr. old or better.
Hunting pressure is 40 members plus family and guests.

We have 13 bucks that we call "mature bucks" for all the hunters to kill. That's every buck we have that is 4.5+.

If only 6 "mature bucks" are killed, that leaves us needing all of our 3.5 yr. old bucks to replace them next year, and we are still one short of what we had.

When next year arrives, we have this:

Last year:

Started: / Finished:
2 bucks 6.5 yrs. old / 1 bucks 6.5 (1 post-rut mortality)
6 bucks 5.5 yrs. old / 2 bucks 5.5 (2 killed, 2 post-rut mort.)
5 bucks 4.5 yrs. old / 1 bucks 4.5 (4 killed)
5 bucks 3.5 yrs. old / 5 bucks 3.5 (no mistakes or letting kids kill < 4.5+) Sure!!

Start this year:
1 buck 7.5 yrs. old
2 bucks 6.5 yrs. old
1 buck 5.5 yrs. old
5 bucks 4.5 yrs. old
? bucks 3.5 yrs. old (predators, recruitment, disprersal, disease, etc. etc.)

We now have 9 bucks that we call "mature bucks" for 40 members, family members and guests to hunt beginning well before and then during the breeding season.

If we kill all the bucks from those 9 "mature bucks", where will we be next year, and how will the buck hierarchy look at that point?

Change the variables around any way you want them and see how it fits.


First off, there have been studies that have shown that antler size has little to do with breeding. Some bucks are more aggressive than others and according to this study antler size seemed to be irrelevant. I know that's what you would think by watching Bambi, but that's not the way it really works in nature grin Your logic would also negate the reason to shoot culls anyway. Cause if they are a cull their probably not breeding, right? Not that I believe in culling, but just saying.

Second, your numbers just aren't realistic. Too many hunters and too many mature bucks killed. You also assume no new bucks move on to the property which is a false assumption. I would take the "9 mature" bucks left from year 1 and add a couple of mature bucks that moved their home range to your property. That's as fair of an assumption as saying that 3 mature bucks died of post rut mortality. You can make up the numbers to prove your point on paper, but this is nature we are talking about and the numbers will never work out that way. What if in year 2 their was a bumper acorn crop and only 3 mature bucks were killed, then where would you be year 3? Fact is all you can do, outside a pen, is look at real life situations and ALL of the properties I know of that only target mature bucks seem to have plenty of mature bucks year after year. Sure everyone will have a down year from time to time but so does the stock market...