Coyotes are like herpes. You may have to learn to live with them but you damn sure can do something to control the outbreaks.

You can either adjust your doe harvest according to fawn recruitment rates or you can implement an intense predator trapping program. How do the costs compare to one another?

Cost are not everything! Why not hunt with a H&R single shot rifle with a tasco scope? It would be cheaper! CNC keeps trying to drive home the habitat management point. I fully agree with that. But why not trap as well? Here is an example. You dont want 2 pay a pro trap, ok fine i respect that. But for say 300-900 dollars you can pay a professional to teach you how. Then lots of trappers on ALDEER will help you buy the tools you need so you dont waste money on things you dont need! For 1000 dollars you can buy the know how and the traps and be on the way of doing it yourself. This is also a lifetime investment. How is this wrong? How much bulldozer and tractor work can you do on say 1000 acre to improve habitat for 1000 dolars? My point is knowledge and steel dont disapear, they can be used AND past on to others. Another example= you dont have time to trap them your self. Trade a TRUE professional trapper free hunting rights. You will lose 0 dollars that way! Nothing wrong with adusting doe harvest, but you will be happier with the results, if trapping is done! Raise you hand if you want less deer to hunt?

The problem with this MORE, MORE, MORE type of mentality as it pertains to wildlife, and specifically deer management…..is something called carrying capacity. One major issue that can arise from removing all predators and artificially inflating specific game populations like deer for prolonged periods of time to higher levels than the surrounding habitat would “normally” or naturally support…..is the impact that these higher than the “norm” populations begin to have on the habitat. For example, certain species of plants that would otherwise be present will get wiped out and the entire landscape can be impacted over time as a result. This is just barely scratching the surface of the impacts that trying to manage for more, more, more can have. Managing within our means is the best approach. Again if you want “MORE” then habitat management is by far your best imvestment.

Its will take alot to get to the levels CNC is talking about.Only up north with the harsh winters are plant severly over browsed like this. Once again CNC is quoting something he has read that may or may not apply to OUR alabama deer hunting! Species of plants being wiped out? Now CNC sounds like a hippy tree hugger! Coyotes breeding like rabbits? Peta member??? What CNC is talking about my be possible some where, but is that really going to happen in alabama? I dont think so.I have talked to biologist and land manager, and it take ALOT to severly get over the lands carring capacity in alabama. Unless its a high fence operation what CNC is talking about, once again is just what he has read. The truth is it would be very hard to do in alabama. Nothing wrong with habitat management , but why not reduce the coyotes numbers as well. Unless your a coyote loving PETA member their is no reason not too!

Does looking back at the history of our own deer management practices here in Alabama support your idea that it’s not possible to manage to one extreme or the other here in our state???

No. You can still trap coyotes and make the deer hunting better!

CNC ,,,,,,,,,,,, there is a surplus of food for the yotes at this point .

surplus ,,, means more than they can eat .

so with a surplus , adding more food will change nothing .

we do it your way we got a whole new ball of wax . your way is the boom and bust cycle of nature and i don't see why we sould let that happen .


i'm out of this one !!!!!

Actually, just the opposite. I’m suggesting that you monitor what’s happening on your specific property and use your efforts to help maintain a more even balance across time of all 3 apsects…..predator, prey, and habitat. If you will look back you will notice that I’ve used the word “balance” numerous times. You guys are the ones suggesting that we manage in a “boom and bust” type fashion. You are just suggesting that we try to manage completely for the boom thinking we will never suffer repercussions as a result.

You are the one that started this whole mess , with the dont do anything about the coyote! Now CNC is trying to distract everyone with something else. Im not going to buy into his way of thinking. If you say that not trapping is the right thing to do you are wrong, period! If we reduce the predators and help with the habitat we can better deer hunting. Why do you keep defending the coyote? Are you gay for coyotes? I think if we reduce the coyote population by 80% every year AND improve habitat that the rest will be ok! Who really wants to let the coyotes kill the deer that we could kill ourselves?

CNC

Why would you think that a landowner that spent time and money controlling predators wouldn't be managing their habitat and herd densities. Either you are arguing just to argue or you can't see the forest for the trees.

Coyotes can be controlled to an extent but predator control of any kind must be part of a well rounded property and herd management plan.

I never said that they wouldn't. I said that its not cost effective nor is it a good long term management strategy to try and manage the prey species past a level that represents a "happy medium" or balance between the habitat and the animals. Doing so only leads to other issues that in the long run become just as counter productive as predation. Things such as habitat degradation.



No it doesn't. It's far from a "necessity" for a well rounded property plan. The habitat that surrounds me is mostly for quail hunting. As such it makes prime fawning habitat. There are no professional trappers running around our neighborhood insuring the future of our herd. Most of the landowners in my area are dealing with the issue of what to do with so many does. You guys are just selling a service to most folks that's not needed and the same goals can be accomplished through other means for a much lower cost.

Throwing out Lotka Volterra predator prey relationship graphs doesn't mean you know what all they are used to represent. In this case it was used incorrectly.

That said coyotes are not going to increase numbers past the available food resources, territory availability and mate availability but we do not how extensive that actually is. It is different in every locale. Coyotes can and do eat almost anything from live prey, carion, fruits, nuts, ag crops down to insects. They can live anywhere and mate within and outside their direct species (dogs and wolves). Now, knowing what some of their available resources are, how large do you think the population can get before it starts a downward trend?

CNC , you couldnt be more wrong. If you want to keep argueing i will keep posting till this topic is either shut- down by the moderators or you quit you Idotic posting! I dont care if this topic goes own for 5 years . You are wrong. You have heard from gamewardens and biologist and you still claim trapping is not in the best interset of our deer heard? You must be smoking CRACK! We dont all have the same type of quail habitat you do. The point is you are trying to make out like we are" just sell our services". I call BS on this. Just today i talked to an ALDEER member, and gave him good advice on trapping. I also give free estimates. I am willing to help ANYONE on here with question about coyotes. How many people" just selling there services "do that? CNC is against steel traps and loves coyotes is all i can figure out! Smart deer managers will use all the tools avalable to them, that includes trapping. For you to say that we are selling a service to folks just to make money is untrue. If it was true none of us would be offering free coyote trapping advice.

Then this is an area without a coyote problem. Like I have said before in other coyote discussions. Coyotes are localized problems. Some areas they are a tremendous issue some they are not.

I'm sorry you disagree but I have managed well over 300,000 acres in the southeast and 15,000 in the Midwest, I'm pretty sure I've got a pretty good idea on the matter. Not to mention the research that has been done on the subject, I guess it is wrong too?

By the way, I don't sell any service...

Well then why don’t you post some facts instead of just credentials. We have plenty of deer in my area not because we lack a predator population being present. We have plenty of deer in my area because there is plenty of good habitat present to limit the impact of fawn predation and the property owners have shown some restraint on doe harvesting.

Nighthunter.....I'm really not trying to take this to an @$$hole versus @$$hole type argument like the guys who can't keep from so much name calling. Prove me wrong if you disagree.

I can but they are going to say what I said so I don't see the point. Trapping works, only in the long term. Short term trapping will have zero effect. To have a positive impact the managers harvests must be compensatory. Meaning to have a positive impact on having more harvestable bucks, one would have to compensate by harvesting more does. This is only in areas near CC. If you are way below CC then you can build the population. If you are way above CC then coyotes are no issue.

It wasn't for credentials, only to show that I see it from a broad base not a single property. I am SORRY if that came off the wrong way, it was not my intention.

Pretty good paper here but it discounts both of us to an extent

More on coyotes affecting population.


Research Paper