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Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #641611
08/05/13 12:31 PM
08/05/13 12:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
E
ElkHunter Offline
Booner
ElkHunter  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
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Prattville AL
No doubt hogs love feed.


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #641615
08/05/13 12:35 PM
08/05/13 12:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,828
Awbarn, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
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Awbarn, AL
If we wanted to truly do what was best for the deer and deer hunters of this state then we would allow the biologists at the DCNR a chance to do the jobs they were hired and went to school to do. Instead we tie their hands behind there back and allow our direction to be dictated by a panel full of self interest groups concerned with promoting their own personal agendas. This is a flawed way we are doing business and is only leading us down the long tern path of abuse of power.


We dont rent pigs
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #641640
08/05/13 01:10 PM
08/05/13 01:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 52,265
Gee's Bend/At The Hog Pen
James Offline
Freak of Nature
James  Offline
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Gee's Bend/At The Hog Pen
& I know u love porkies there pig slayer! Lol



Do not regret growing older, it's a privilege denied to many!

Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: James] #641647
08/05/13 01:22 PM
08/05/13 01:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline OP
10 point
NightHunter  Offline OP
10 point
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Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: james
I know some will be happy. but has any one thought about what this is gonna do to the hog population. Another 20years of this chit & the deers gonna be on my back porch looking for a handout! Cause I forgot to fill my troughs. how did they ever make it with out us. Not mention every gw i know seems to think the way I do were fixing to see our deer population go even more nocturnal.


I will guarantee they will be more nocturnal.

Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: CNC] #641651
08/05/13 01:25 PM
08/05/13 01:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline OP
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NightHunter  Offline OP
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Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: CNC
If we wanted to truly do what was best for the deer and deer hunters of this state then we would allow the biologists at the DCNR a chance to do the jobs they were hired and went to school to do. Instead we tie their hands behind there back and allow our direction to be dictated by a panel full of self interest groups concerned with promoting their own personal agendas. This is a flawed way we are doing business and is only leading us down the long tern path of abuse of power.


I thought that was how politics worked wink

I agree but the two top men are working diligently to get to that. It will take time. Ask the state guys you know if they don't have more support from the top brass than they ever have.

Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: CNC] #641659
08/05/13 01:32 PM
08/05/13 01:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline OP
10 point
NightHunter  Offline OP
10 point
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Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: CNC
Originally Posted By: NightHunter
Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
Ripping a bag of corn and a food plot are not the same thing.

That bag of corn on the ground will be gone in a day or two. That food plot will be there all year if planted properly with the right seeds. It will be there 24/7 for all the animals.

Those bags of corn/feed carry a fixed amount of food and other beneficial ingredients. That food plot will provide tons of food.

Trying to say they are the same is like saying Phyllis Diller and Jennifer Lawrence are the same because they are both female. I will take food plots and Jennifer Lawrence every time.


Our commissioner and director are good people and want what is best for our state and it's wildlife.


If this had anything to do with whats best for out states deer herd then we would be taking a much more conservative approach toward feeding deer and make it completely illegal until more is found out about its links with disease spread. With the risk of disease spread from feeding still very much unknown and the risk for CWD moving into the south looming.the health of the herd is just along for the ride with this decision. Feeding deer out of feeders and troughs is not a necessity and is only truly done for the luxury of the land owner. It poses great potential for long term problems and offers few long term benefits.


And you studied wildlife disease where wink. JK

Some valid points but if we get CWD it ain't from feeding. Also, our common southern disease causes normally do not revolve around transmittal from bodily fluids, rather other vectors.

There are many that transmit from from animals being in close proximity though but that happens in all kinds of places. There are some concerns though, one example being Bovine TB.

Last edited by NightHunter; 08/05/13 03:48 PM.
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: CNC] #641719
08/05/13 02:47 PM
08/05/13 02:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
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Birmingham
Originally Posted By: CNC
This is just one guys opinion but here is what I think all this stems from and the reason all this has even gotten started in the first place. The problem is that the original law, the one we have used up until now, was in itself poorly written and very grey. That was fine though for awhile because it was written like that on purpose so that some people who were in the position to do so, could take advantage of the clause by running feeders on their property year round and it be ok while for the rest of the hunting public it was still called baiting.

The problem is that the guys who were doing this had buddies who saw what was happening and started doing it and then they had buddies start doing it. and before long you had people all over thinking that all you had to do was walk over the hill from the feeder and you were all good. You then started getting more and more guys asking.Can I do this too? At this point people who were running feeders were either doing one of a few things..either they were: 1) setting feeders up, winking twice and taking advantage of the clause 2) setting up feeders and just hoping it was legal from what they had heard..never really knowing for sure.or 3) People who set up feeders and out of ignorance of the law just think they are all good. This has become so widespread that people all over the state were asking questions and just wanted to know what was legal and what wasnt.

That brings us to our current situation. The situation has gotten to such a point with people setting up feeders and the drumbeat of questions so loud that it has forced the powers that be to make a move and redefine the law to appease those asking questions while still keeping its original intent of only allowing some to do it, in place. In doing so they have created a colossal cluster$#$% which they are now scrambling to try and clean up. Special interests run a muck. Make it completely legal or make it completely illegal. How confusing would that be?


I completely agree with your second paragraph, but as for the first...I'm not sure that's really the case. I would love to know the number of tickets given for baiting to a hunter/ manager that was truly hunting land with feed stations but honestly felt he was far enough away from the feeders to be legal. My guess is very, very, very few...I'd venture to say that most tickets are given to "hunters" that are blatantly baiting. The new law is crap for sure, but the intent was not to help those that supplemental feed, the intent was to help those like the Ainsworth that were crying about not being able to implement their "management plan" cause their clients couldn't hunt near the feeders in side their pen full of genetically manipulated, farm raised whitetail livestock.

Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #641732
08/05/13 03:00 PM
08/05/13 03:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
Birmingham
T
truedouble Offline
14 point
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Birmingham
Originally Posted By: NightHunter
Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
Ripping a bag of corn and a food plot are not the same thing.

That bag of corn on the ground will be gone in a day or two. That food plot will be there all year if planted properly with the right seeds. It will be there 24/7 for all the animals.

Those bags of corn/feed carry a fixed amount of food and other beneficial ingredients. That food plot will provide tons of food.

Trying to say they are the same is like saying Phyllis Diller and Jennifer Lawrence are the same because they are both female. I will take food plots and Jennifer Lawrence every time.


I completely agree with your point here just like I agree with 2Dogs above but how many food plots were there before you put them there? A simple question. Yes I would take food plots over feeding/bait any day. I dual crop on my leases and always have. The argument is everything we do is to give us an advantage. True or false? Science tells us baiting actually is not an advantage, or at lease the studies I have seen show that. It shows that it takes more man hours per harvest in areas where baiting is legal vs. areas where it is not. Now Texas is a different story for some reason. It seems everything in Texas is different...

Everyone's definition of bait or feed is probably different. In most cases we are going to define it in a way that benefits us the most. I could sit here and turn everything around and make it a valid argument if I wanted kinda like 9er but I wont. There were enough people going to the CAB meetings asking for something to be done on this topic and this is what we got. My guess is it may evolve as time goes but to get it changed, you the hunters have to go to the CAB meeting and be heard. Our commissioner and director are good people and want what is best for our state and it's wildlife.

As hunters we cherry pick to make things as we want them. Even easily understandable language. We pick parts out of a law or reg. and and forget what the rest says when it in its entirety is what we have to go by.


I'd like to know where those studies were run...the states I know of that allow baiting seem to do pretty good shooting mature bucks over bait...Kansas, Kentucky, Texas, Canada, etc. Now take your avg. high pressure hunting club and Alabama as an example and sure, I would agree that after a few months the deer, especially older deer will only use the feeders at night, but all else being equal feeders don't make it harder to kill bucks...if they did then hunters in the above mentioned states wouldn't be hunting and killing B&C bucks over bait.

I also take exception to your comment about our commissioner wanting what is best for wildlife. For the life of me I can't figure out why he would let the new law through if that were the case. Like bait or hate bait, the new law sucks, is confusing and will do nothing but create issues for hunters and GW's...how is that wanting what is best for the state and wildlife?

Unfortunately we are in a time where some and apparently quite a few "hunters" want to kill huge bucks with as little effort as possible. Penned hunts, putting out bait piles instead of taking the time and effort to plant foodplots or hunt natural browse, guided hunts instead of scouting and "earning" your buck, etc., etc... the thrill of the hunt and working for a buck is non existent for these types...it's all about putting that buck on the wall to brag about to people they hope to impress...I guess. I realize all that are pro-bait aren't like this but a lot are...

Last edited by truedouble; 08/05/13 03:03 PM.
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #641734
08/05/13 03:02 PM
08/05/13 03:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,828
Awbarn, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,828
Awbarn, AL
Originally Posted By: NightHunter
Originally Posted By: CNC
If we wanted to truly do what was best for the deer and deer hunters of this state then we would allow the biologists at the DCNR a chance to do the jobs they were hired and went to school to do. Instead we tie their hands behind there back and allow our direction to be dictated by a panel full of self interest groups concerned with promoting their own personal agendas. This is a flawed way we are doing business and is only leading us down the long tern path of abuse of power.


I thought that was how politics worked wink



Youre correct. Thats exactly how politics tend to go. Which is it were talking about here though..the best interest of the politics or the best interest of the deer herd? Which one is going to take a back seat to the other in the current system? Which ones best interest do we want influencing long term decision making?


We dont rent pigs
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: truedouble] #641800
08/05/13 03:43 PM
08/05/13 03:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline OP
10 point
NightHunter  Offline OP
10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
Originally Posted By: truedouble


I'd like to know where those studies were run...

I also take exception to your comment about our commissioner wanting what is best for wildlife.


Here is an article on the South Carolina project I was referring to. I'll try and get a copy of the actual peer reviewed study.

Linky

As for the Commish... Haven't you ever had a position where you answer to higher powers? I have talked with the director more than once and they are very well aware of the challenges managing AL's wildlife and most of them are getting people on the same page. For example here on ALDeer there are probably hundreds of different views on what should be done about baiting. How do they sort through it all to make the masses happy, IMO you can't.

Last edited by NightHunter; 08/05/13 03:52 PM.
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: ElkHunter] #641994
08/06/13 02:10 AM
08/06/13 02:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,655
Lincoln, Alabama
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blumsden Offline
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Lincoln, Alabama
Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
Food plots are an advantage if you hunt them. I haven't killed anything on a fool plot in years but hogs. I believe in food plots and their benefits. I don't blame folks for hunting them, I just disagree that they are the same as baiting. The benefits of a food plot are tremendous compared to a bag or 3 of corn.


I think everybody here understands that a food plot is more nutritious and better for the deer, however, they come to a plot to eat just like to a pile of corn. There is no difference. Food attracting deer. I plant several acres of plots, and don't bait. It really doesn't bother me what someone does on their land.

Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: blumsden] #642029
08/06/13 02:42 AM
08/06/13 02:42 AM
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Posts: 4,713
War Eagle, USA
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Bucktrot Offline
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Bucktrot  Offline
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Posts: 4,713
War Eagle, USA
Originally Posted By: blumsden
Originally Posted By: ElkHunter
Food plots are an advantage if you hunt them. I haven't killed anything on a fool plot in years but hogs. I believe in food plots and their benefits. I don't blame folks for hunting them, I just disagree that they are the same as baiting. The benefits of a food plot are tremendous compared to a bag or 3 of corn.


I think everybody here understands that a food plot is more nutritious and better for the deer, however, they come to a plot to eat just like to a pile of corn. There is no difference. Food attracting deer. I plant several acres of plots, and don't bait. It really doesn't bother me what someone does on their land.


blumsden, you just admitted the difference and turned around and denied the difference. You said it yourself when you said this: "I think everybody here understands that a food plot is more nutritious and better for the deer..." Then you turned around and stated that there's no difference. (Between baiting and food plots).

That's (one of) the differences and you said it yourself.

I once had a hunting club member accuse me of "spreading out the deer herd" because I was putting as much quality nutrition on the ground as I could. Although I attempt to make all food plots "huntable", but my goal is to put as much as possible nutritious food on the ground.

He wanted limited food and limited locations to herd the deer. With one or two hunters, well, I guess that's an option. But with many hunters, I believe you need many hunting locations and hide-a-way food plots to avoid over-hunting a location and feed the deer quality food 24/7. Feeders can be programmed to go off at daytime hours only. There IS a difference in baiting and food plots.

Last edited by Bucktrot; 08/06/13 02:47 AM.
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: Bucktrot] #642113
08/06/13 04:07 AM
08/06/13 04:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,555
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
There's a difference in food quality,yes , but a case can be made that both are bait. Some seed companies even market their seed as a "kill plot", sounds like bait to me. The good ol' boys that sow rye knowing that it's just to draw them in, bait.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #642120
08/06/13 04:12 AM
08/06/13 04:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,655
Lincoln, Alabama
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blumsden Offline
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Lincoln, Alabama
I know there is a difference between the two. One is growing from the ground, and takes more work and money to accomplish. They are both still attracting deer, because they are food, therefore IMO their both bait. Sometimes when we spend more work and money on something, we put it on a pedestal. Justifying hunting over a food plot, because it cost more and is more nutritious, makes us feel better than someone just pouring it out on the ground. The deer are coming to food, period. Fertilizing native browse and acorn trees, are baiting as well, IMO. The law doesn't see it that way, but its what i believe. Most people wouldn't do it, unless they hunted.

Last edited by blumsden; 08/06/13 04:14 AM.
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #642255
08/06/13 07:24 AM
08/06/13 07:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,828
Awbarn, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,828
Awbarn, AL
Nighthunter.This article in the hunting digest should feel like a slap in the face to most of us. I cant see how the people who came up with this can even keep a straight face when telling it to someone at this point. Does this paragraph feel to you like people using what they know is right or wrong in their hearts to make or interpret a law? It feels more to me like someone pissing on my head and telling me its raining

If a hunter knowingly hunts less than 100 yards from or within
sight of feed or feeder they are subject to a citation for baiting.
However, if available evidence supports the case that the individual
is hunting by the aid of bait (baiting), there is no specific distance
or hidden from sight structure that will exempt them from arrest.
Remember, hunting by the use of bait is illegal,


It might as well say:

Hold on everybody, there has been a misunderstanding. We meant to just tweak the law so that certain special interests groups could still run their feeders and hunt to. You have misunderstood that to mean that it is ok for you to do as well. Its not. Its still baiting for the rest of you.

The rest of the article is all a bunch of smoke being blown for the purpose of delivering this one message to the hunting public. What you can and cant do is still just as grey as its ever been. Look, I know it would be nave at this point in the game to think that special interests and politics arent involved in the direction of our states deer management.but if you are going to cave and make special laws to cater to special interests, then what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If some can do it then we all can do it. This law and the way it is being interpreted is blatantly unfair and unacceptable. The position that the hunting public has been put in is unfair and unacceptable. With that, I have said my peace and will bow out. Sorry for just busting up in here and going off but the way this is playing out is not right.


Last edited by CNC; 08/06/13 07:25 AM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: CNC] #642268
08/06/13 07:49 AM
08/06/13 07:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
NightHunter Offline OP
10 point
NightHunter  Offline OP
10 point
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,999
Holly Pond, AL
I am not special interest. I will not get a ticket. I will hunt 101 yards from a feeder this year. I'll even call the local CEO and tell him where I'll be. I understand the reg. and rebuttable presumption.

I could also set a feeder and a stand up 500 yards apart and get a ticket in one place.

I get that everyone thinks that this reg. sucks but guess what, we got it and we have to go by it for now. You best understand it. Most people that that just infringe on it a little will probably get warned if I had my guess. The baiters are still going bait, that's not going to change.

Who knows whit all the uproar about it, maybe the reg. will evolve over the next couple of years.

Please don't get me wrong either, I am not going to defend the reg. but the people behind it. I know some of them and some of those guys are close friends. I know they want what is best for the state's wildlife whether you believe it or not. Remember, we all answer to someone wink

Last edited by NightHunter; 08/06/13 07:52 AM.
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #642351
08/06/13 09:50 AM
08/06/13 09:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,828
Awbarn, AL
CNC Offline
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Offline
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,828
Awbarn, AL
Originally Posted By: NightHunter
I will not get a ticket. I will hunt 101 yards from a feeder this year. I'll even call the local CEO and tell him where I'll be. I understand the reg. and rebuttable presumption.


And when youre sitting there this year 101 yards from your feeder, I'm sure you will know in your heart that you are really not baiting with that feeder over there..youre just supplemental feeding 101 yards away and thats different.(sarcasm) Remember what you said.Everyone knows if theyre baiting or not. All you have to do is use some common sense.

Maybe we need to just start getting all the landowners in each county to call their CEOs and have them go door to door and check each individual situation to insure that we are all compliant with the law. Is that feasible or a smart thing to do with our limited resources at the DCNR at this time? Maybe you get the thumbs up on your 101 yards from your GW but a landowner in another county gets told he is baiting for the same 101 yards. That;s an awful lot of scenarios and interpreting to do. Maybe some landowners never get the go ahead either way because there arent enough man hours to allocate to such a task. That landowner is left either chancing it or not using a feeder at all while his neighbors bait away. It doesnt change the real truth in any situation, it just makes it unfair and unbalanced. Sitting 101 yards from a feeder is sitting 101 yards from a feeder. Please, just make it legal or make it illegal.

Happy hunting.

Last edited by CNC; 08/06/13 11:05 AM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #642367
08/06/13 10:16 AM
08/06/13 10:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,375
Jasper, AL
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joshm28 Offline
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Jasper, AL
Here is what my simple brain tells me the definition is between food plots and corn piles.

Food Plots - Time consuming, wildlife helping, increasing the chances of seeing deer, fun

Bait Pile - Lazy

Most of us on here wont spend the ammount of money it would take to feed corn, much less a high quality protein feed, that will provide the same tonnage of food/browse as a 1 acre food plot. Figure anywhere from 2-8 tons per acre, depending on all sorts of variables. That would take a minimum of 80 bags of corn ($800 if buying per bag) and would not have the same nutrition as an even mediocre quality food plot.

Nothing about pouring a bag of feed in a feeder and waiting on a deer to show up interests me. Not only that but food plots benefit much more wildlife than a pile of corn.

Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: blumsden] #642370
08/06/13 10:23 AM
08/06/13 10:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 11,347
Prattville AL
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ElkHunter Offline
Booner
ElkHunter  Offline
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Prattville AL
I am sorry that I find a HUGE difference in a food plot that is out 24/7/365 vs a feeder that throws a determined amount for X seconds twice a day.


Alabama Hog Control, Inc.
www.alabamahogcontrol.com
Barry Estes

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
Re: Baiting vs. Feeding [Re: NightHunter] #642440
08/06/13 11:47 AM
08/06/13 11:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,620
Tuscaloosa Co.
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N2TRKYS Offline
Booner
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Booner
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,620
Tuscaloosa Co.
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