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HWOP case made with trail cam pic #612290
06/20/13 06:20 AM
06/20/13 06:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,630
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline OP
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Anyone know if there's ever been a conviction made in Alabama for HWOP on a poacher with a trail cam pic?
Been told by a GW it could be done, but has it?



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612294
06/20/13 06:27 AM
06/20/13 06:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,628
Tuscaloosa Co.
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N2TRKYS Offline
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Tuscaloosa Co.
It seems that it would be hard to prove where the camera is located. Unless, you had distinguishing surroundings.


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612308
06/20/13 06:53 AM
06/20/13 06:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Most hunting violation cases are never appealed, so it's hard to keep up with them since they aren't published.

You would probably have to testify in court that the camera was on your land at the time the picture was taken and show proof that the poacher was there and did not have permission to hunt there. Posted signs are recognized as adequate notice against trespassing, so you may want to press charges for trespassing too. Take some pictures of your "No Trespassing, No Hunting" signs to court with you.

I talked to our county court clerk about viewing hunting violation records last year and was told I could not do that. I think if I was willing to press the issue he could be proven wrong, but I didn't take it any farther at the time. I still think I may. That clerk got voted out anyhow, so I may talk to our new court clerk and see if I can do some research on hunting violations like you're talking about.

I called the DCNR office and they said I could view their records if I made arrangements through their legal department. I think it would be interesting to see a history of the most frequent violations that are cited, and some of the details of the circumstances.

Maybe I'll have something like that to share here some day in the future.

Good question.

Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612316
06/20/13 07:05 AM
06/20/13 07:05 AM
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Posts: 36,255
alabama
BhamFred Offline
Freak of Nature
BhamFred  Offline
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I used cameras some the last couple of years I worked. I don't recall a HWOP case made with one. I did help make a hunting over bait case with one though.

"Proving " where the camera was comes down to your testimony about where you put it, date put out, etc.

Can a GW place a camera on bait on private property w/o out the owners consent, owner may be the baiter???

I made a case one time based on my dog, Taz, back tracking a hunter to his stand and bait. The judge "took" the dogs testimony, training, my testimony, into account and convicted the fella.

A lot of this depends on the DC Judge and how he feels about conservation cases and how well he knows and trusts the GW.


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612318
06/20/13 07:07 AM
06/20/13 07:07 AM
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Posts: 51,987
Round ‘bout there
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Clem Offline
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Clem  Offline
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Citations for hunting violations are, or should be, no different than for traffic or other violations and should be public record available upon request.

Clerks may ask "Why do you want/need to see this?" but there is no basis for that question other than badgering or harassment. They have no legal standing to ask why you want/need to see a public document.

Those records also should be easily available from the DCNR upon request, at least the annual report of violations - number, type, etc. The records exist and are part of an annual report created each year by the DCNR.

They SHOULD be published on the DCNR website annually. Some states, like Texas, publish conservation enforcement arrests with name, county, violation and some details, just like police departments release daily (or otherwise) arrest reports.

Just because a guy gets arrested for trespassing while he's hunting doesn't make a hill of difference for being arrested while hiking or being a public nusiance or drunk. Trespassing is trespassing. Neither a clerk nor wildlife agency should say "well, that wildlife violation is different" because it's not.

If anything, all state wildlife agencies should do more to announce their arrests and convictions instead of hiding and saying, "We don't want to be in the spotlight." Bullsnoggles. They're just afraid of getting their balls busted by friends and political buddies who get busted for shooting at night, baiting or whatever.

Eddie, make that request for the annual violations report. Should be no reason they wouldn't provide that to you.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612347
06/20/13 08:21 AM
06/20/13 08:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 645
Lowndes County
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augustus_65 Offline
4 point
augustus_65  Offline
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Lowndes County
Clem is correct regarding access to conservation cases. They are a matter of public record. Unless the charge was made against a juvenile and the case was assigned a JU case number, in which case the record is sealed and not subject to public access, all DC (District Criminal) cases are accessible to the public as a public record.
As for the admissibility of game camera photos, they could be used in a hunting without permission case just as any other photograph, but there would need to be additional steps to authenticate the photos before they could be admitted under the Alabama Rules of Evidence.

Last edited by augustus_65; 06/20/13 08:24 AM.
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 49er] #612353
06/20/13 08:33 AM
06/20/13 08:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,630
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline OP
Freak of Nature
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Here's what I'm thinking, after you get a pic of the trespasser/poacher, get the GW to go with you to the spot, take along a copy of the pic. Take several pictures of the game camera and a couple from the same angle as the game cam. Then proceed with pressing charges.
As far as No Hunting/No Trespassing signs, I've bought several hundered dollars worth over the years, only to have them torn down. The ones I wanta catch know where the lines are and that they shouldn't be there. I've sucessfully prosecuted a couple in areas where there were no signs, don't even recall it being questioned.
Never understood tearing signs down,it doesn't change anything,and let's people know you were in that area. They might keep the honest guy out and the tresspasser would have less competition in that area.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 49er] #612364
06/20/13 09:02 AM
06/20/13 09:02 AM
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Posts: 51,987
Round ‘bout there
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Clem Offline
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Quote:
I talked to our county court clerk about viewing hunting violation records last year and was told I could not do that.


Your county court clerk was (or is) wrong. Failing to let you view these is a violation of the state's open records law and can be punishable through the judicial system.

http://www.sunshinereview.org/index.php/State_sunshine_laws


You should not be required to make a formal FOIA request for documents. A simple request should suffice, and without fee(s) other than what might be reasonable to research, prepare and provide you with the document. Charging you $25 to pull a file and hit "print" is bullshiz but some places try to intimidate the public by charging onerous fees per page and making time constraints and/or a big deal out of a simple request.

But if you must file a FOIA request, some guidelines:

http://www.sunshinereview.org/index.php/Alabama_FOIA_procedures


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612376
06/20/13 09:25 AM
06/20/13 09:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,982
Hampton Cove
foldemup Offline
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What you should do is give me a key to the gate, and my infrequent presence will scare all trespassers away! grin

Last edited by foldemup; 06/20/13 01:53 PM.

If you want to always win, never play anyone better than you!
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: Clem] #612401
06/20/13 10:46 AM
06/20/13 10:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Thanks Clem.

I had a local newspaper journalist helping me with my request when this all happened.

Benny Watson was the Circuit Court Clerk for the Bessemer Cut-off courts then, and I voted against him in the last election because of his attitude. He lost.

Maybe our new clerk will have a better attitude about sharing public information.

Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612410
06/20/13 11:18 AM
06/20/13 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 51,987
Round ‘bout there
C
Clem Offline
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What's really bad is when someone requests something, the clerk refuses and then continues to do so after being informed of (and even shown) the state law that requires them to provide it, simply because they have the record and can deny it until being forced to hand it over.

Then they still want to act snotty about it.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612429
06/20/13 12:18 PM
06/20/13 12:18 PM
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Posts: 36,255
alabama
BhamFred Offline
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alabama
ya'll could derail a train......


I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....

proud Cracker-Americaan

muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: foldemup] #612432
06/20/13 12:27 PM
06/20/13 12:27 PM
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Posts: 34,630
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline OP
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: foldemup
What ou should do is give me a key to the gate, and my infrequent presence will scare all trespassers away! grin

There are folks going in and out at all times, day, night and weekdays, that's not a problem. However, if you and Jughead were seen going in and out in his bad mini van, they'd know they were dealing with some bad muthas and relocate to another county. laugh



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: BhamFred] #612435
06/20/13 12:37 PM
06/20/13 12:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,630
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline OP
Freak of Nature
2Dogs  Offline OP
Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
ya'll could derail a train......

You got that right!


That being said, I'll add this, my father asked the revenue office for a breakdown on where the taxes go for the county. The clerk told him he'd have to get an attorney to make a request, not a smart move on her part. eek



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612447
06/20/13 12:55 PM
06/20/13 12:55 PM
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Posts: 51,987
Round ‘bout there
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Clem Offline
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Clem  Offline
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True, Fred. Sorry about that.

2Dogs, that clerk may not know. But that's not a good answer to give a citizen.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

"Best I can figure 97.365% of the general public is a paint chip eating, mouth breathing, certified dumbass." BCLC, 2020
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: Clem] #612452
06/20/13 01:04 PM
06/20/13 01:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,630
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline OP
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted By: Clem
True, Fred. Sorry about that.

2Dogs, that clerk may not know. But that's not a good answer to give a citizen.


She knows it now, to say she had a bad day would be a HUGE understatement. He plays rough.

Now, back to poacher cam.......



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 2Dogs] #612480
06/20/13 02:29 PM
06/20/13 02:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
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Warrior River Country
I found one case that was heard in the Alabama Criminal Court of Appeals that supports the use of camera evidence for a trespassing claim. I see no reason why it could not be used to support a hunting without permission claim as well.

There's some good information there on damages that can be claimed in addition to the criminal charges involved in trespassing claims as well. No actual physical damage has to be done for a claim to exist. The trespass itself is considered enough to claim "nominal" damages.

Quote:
“ … Before Downs and Dudley built their extended privacy fence, the security camera overlooking the side of Lyles's home caught numerous images of Dudley clearing debris of various nature off of his driveway by use of a leaf blower or a garden hose; the debris fell onto Lyles's side yard. At one point, Dudley cleaned a substance off his driveway and then placed shovels full of dirt over the substance along the edge of the driveway. The camera also captured images of Dudley entering the space between the two privacy fences on numerous occasions, at least one time while carrying a bottle with an attached sprayer that Burke identified as a container of Round-Up, a weed killer. The backyard camera caught someone tearing a plastic door off the area between the privacy fences, someone peering through the fence built by Burke for a period, and someone spraying a liquid substance through that fence. …

… Downs and Dudley argue that the judgment entered on the jury verdict on Lyles and Burke's trespass claim should be reversed because the damages assessed on that claim were based on speculation and conjecture. Downs and Dudley mention in their brief that Dudley's entry between the fences would not have been prohibited and that Downs and Dudley had denied doing the acts complained of in the trespass claim. If this is an argument that the evidence was insufficient to support a judgment on the trespass claim, the argument is underdeveloped and unsupported by any authority. Rule 28, Ala. R.App. P., requires an appellant to "present his issues `with clarity and without ambiguity'" and to "fully express his position on the enumerated issues" in the argument section of her brief. Bishop v. Robinson, 516 So.2d 723, 724 (Ala.Civ.App.1987) (quoting Thoman Eng'rs, Inc. v. McDonald, 57 Ala. App. 287, 290, 328 So.2d 293, 294 (Civ.App. 1976)); see also White Sands Group, L.L.C. v. PRS II, LLC, 998 So.2d 1042, 1058 (Ala.2008). ("Rule 28(a)(10) requires that arguments in briefs contain discussions of facts and relevant legal authorities that support the party's position. If they do not, the arguments are waived."). Thus, we decline to consider the argument, if it was intended to be made, that the evidence is insufficient to support the judgment entered on the trespass claim and will consider only the argument concerning damages. …

When there is no actual damage to the real property resulting from the trespass, the owner of the property is entitled to nominal damages for the trespass. Johnson, 423 So.2d at 870. Compensation for damage to personal property occurring during a trespass is recoverable in a trespass action. Id. In addition, "a plaintiff can recover for mental suffering which was the proximate consequence of a trespass to property if the trespass was committed under circumstances of insult and contumely." Id. at 871. Punitive damages are also available to a plaintiff in a trespass action, even if only nominal damages are awarded, "if the trespass is attended by rudeness, wantonness, recklessness or an insulting manner or is accompanied by circumstances of fraud and malice, oppression, aggravation, or gross negligence." Rushing, 293 Ala. at 61, 300 So.2d at 98. …

… Downs and Dudley further argue that the evidence did not clearly and convincingly establish that any actions taken by Downs or Dudley were malicious, as required by Ala.Code 1975, § 6-11-20(b)(2), for the imposition of punitive damages. The evidence was such that the jury could have concluded that Dudley had entered Lyles's property to purposefully damage the garden on her property. Other evidence indicated that Dudley had acted in a rude and insulting manner during those times he went in and out of the area between the fences and as he cleaned his driveway, because he often made vulgar gestures and, at least once, made an obscene comment directly to the security camera. Thus, we cannot agree that the evidence presented to the jury regarding the "rudeness," "insulting manner," and "malice" accompanying Dudley's actions was not clear and convincing evidence warranting the imposition. ...


Downs v Lyles *** click here ***

Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: BhamFred] #612481
06/20/13 02:32 PM
06/20/13 02:32 PM
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Posts: 39,456
Marshall County
FurFlyin Offline
Freak of Nature
FurFlyin  Offline
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Marshall County
Originally Posted By: BhamFred
ya'll could derail a train......


That's what the GW's were afraid would happen when they busted the night hunter in Marshall county whose bad boy buggy had broke down on the train tracks....


If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: FurFlyin] #612491
06/20/13 02:43 PM
06/20/13 02:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
Booner
49er  Offline
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Warrior River Country
Derails have their place.

We were required to install derails in our tracks underground by federal mining regulations. Sometimes a derail can prevent a serious and deadly crash.

I think we might have 'er back on the track now if ya'll will just shut up and cooperate. grin

Re: HWOP case made with trail cam pic [Re: 49er] #612504
06/20/13 03:06 PM
06/20/13 03:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,997
Warrior River Country
49er Offline
Booner
49er  Offline
Booner
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Warrior River Country
Here's you some more case law that I found about the "silent witness theory" involved in camera evidence:


" ... In recent years we have required compliance with the seven-pronged test set out in Voudrie v. State, 387 So.2d 248, 256 (Ala. Cr.App.), cert. denied, Ex parte Voudrie, 387 So.2d 256 (Ala.1980), for the admission of sound or film recordings. In addition, Alabama has always followed the traditional or "pictorial communication" theory for admitting photographs, maps, diagrams, sound recordings, movies, and videotapes. See UAW-CIO v. Russell, 264 Ala. 456, 470, 88 So.2d 175, 186 (1956), affirmed, 356 U.S. 634, 78 S.Ct. 932, 2 L.Ed.2d 1030 (1958). See generally E. Cleary, McCormick on Evidence § 214 (3d ed. 1984); W. Schroeder, J. Hoffman, and R. Thigpen, Alabama Evidence § 11-3 (1987); 3 Wigmore, Evidence §§ 790, 792 (Chadbourn rev. 1970). Under that theory, a videotape is the "nonverbal expression of the testimony of some witness competent to speak to the facts represented." 3 Wigmore, supra, at 218-19 (emphasis in original). It "becomes admissible only when a witness has testified that it is a correct and accurate representation of relevant facts personally observed by the witness." McCormick on Evidence, supra, at 530.

"The motion picture does not of itself prove an actual occurrence but the thing reproduced must be established by the testimony of witnesses. The motion picture as exhibited to the jury is the pictorial communication of the witness' testimony and is used to convey the observations of the witness to the jury more fully and accurately than the witness can convey them verbally. The picture is not admissible unless a witness testifies 710*710 that the picture as exhibited accurately reproduces the objects or actions which he observed." UAW-CIO v. Russell, 264 Ala. at 470, 88 So.2d at 186 (emphasis added).

In the present case, Sergeant Connick, who testified to the operation and functional capability of the videotape machine, was unable to testify that the tape fairly and accurately reproduced the defendant's telephone conversation because he personally was not a witness to the conversation. Connick testified that he activated the videotaping device but that he later left the room and did not hear the defendant make the call. Under the traditional "pictorial communication" theory for admitting the videotape, Sergeant Connick was not a competent witness and could not have established the necessary predicate for its admission.

Under an alternative principle of admissibility known as the "silent witness" theory, however, Sergeant Connick's inability to state that the tape accurately portrayed what he personally perceived would not have rendered the tape inadmissible. See 3 Wigmore, § 790, supra.

"t has become clear that an additional theory of admissibility ... is entitled to recognition. Thus, even though no human is capable of swearing that he personally perceived what a photograph [or videotape] purports to portray (so that it is not possible to satisfy the requirements of the `pictorial testimony' rationale) there may nevertheless be good warrant for receiving the ... evidence. Given an adequate foundation assuring the accuracy of the process producing it, the photograph [or videotape] should then be received as a so-called silent witness or as a witness which `speaks for itself.'" 3 Wigmore, supra, at 220.

The "silent witness" theory of admissibility has been principally relied upon to admit X-ray photographs, see People v. Bowley, 59 Cal.2d 855, 861, 31 Cal.Rptr. 471, 475, 382 P.2d 591, 595 (1963) (collecting cases), and films taken by surveillance cameras when there were no humans present, see, e.g., United States v. Taylor, 530 F.2d 639 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, Taylor v. United States, 429 U.S. 845, 97 S.Ct. 127, 50 L.Ed.2d 117 (1976) (film of bank robbery made by camera activated after bank personnel were locked in vault).

"X-ray photographs are admitted into evidence although there is no one who can testify from direct observation inside the body that they accurately represent what they purport to show....

"There is no reason why a photograph or film, like an X-ray, may not, in a proper case, be probative in itself. To hold otherwise would illogically limit the use of a device whose memory is more accurate and reliable than that of a human witness." People v. Bowley, id.

The predicate for admission under the "silent witness" theory "differs markedly from that customarily permitted under the traditional doctrine." W. Schroeder, J. Hoffman and R. Thigpen, Alabama Evidence, supra, at 376. "It is neither possible nor wise to establish specific foundational requirements for the admissibility of photographic evidence under the `silent witness' theory, since the context in which the photographic evidence was obtained and its intended use at trial will be different in virtually every case." Fisher v. State, 7 Ark.App. 1, 643 S.W.2d 571, 575 (1982).

Although the traditional "chain of custody" predicate is not required under the "silent witness" theory, see, e.g., State v. Deering, 291 N.W.2d 38, 40-41 (Iowa 1980), if there are no available eyewitnesses to verify the accuracy of the recording at issue, then there should be some testimony which establishes "the fidelity of the film's portrayal," id. at 40. See e.g., People v. Doggett, 83 Cal.App.2d 405, 188 P.2d 792, 795 (1948) (testimony by a photographic expert that the picture was not a composite and had not been faked, but was a true representation of a "pure negative"). State v. Molasky, 655 S.W.2d 663, 668 (Mo. App.1983), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 1049, 104 S.Ct. 727, 79 L.Ed.2d 187 (1984) (videotape expert verified that tape had not been altered). See generally Annot. 60 A.L.R.3d 333, 345-48 (1974).

711*711 "As long as satisfactory evidence of the integrity of a film or videotape is presented, stringent foundational requirements, such as proof of a continuous chain of custody, are now almost universally rejected as unnecessary. An example of a film or tape for which chain of custody might be one appropriate way of establishing authenticity would be a film or tape made with an automatic camera that recorded an event when no human beings were present. But even in this situation, rather than resorting to proof of chain of custody, it usually should be possible to authenticate the film or tape in some other way, such as by the testimony of a photographic expert who has determined that it had not been altered in any way and was not built-up or faked." C. Scott, 3 Photographic Evidence § 1297 at 95 (2d ed. 1969) (1987 Pocket Part). See also State v. Young, 303 A.2d 113 (Me.1973) (chain of custody proved in the absence of eyewitness verification); State v. Bunting, 187 N.J.Super 506, 455 A.2d 531 (N.J.Super.Ct.1983) (same).

In the present case, Sergeant Connick could not testify to the accuracy of the tape, the State presented no evidence relating to the chain of custody, and there was no expert testimony that the tape had not been altered. We hold, nevertheless, that the videotape was properly admitted under a streamlined version of the "pictorial communication" theory. We endorse in principle the "silent witness" theory and find its rationale relevant to our disposition of this issue. However, we rely on the traditional doctrine to uphold the admissibility of the tape because the testimony of another State's witness, Corporal Robert Sieck, Sr., provided a sufficient basis for authenticating the evidence under a revised version of the traditional predicate. ..."

[i]Molina v. State
, 533 So. 2d 701 - Ala: Court of Criminal Appeals 1988

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