What I have learned from this thread and the many before it about Alabama wanting to improve the deer heard and hunting experience for hunters in this state is that 49er has his opinion and it ain't never going to change no matter what is said or who says it( i.e. the retired coal miner knows way more about wildlife than all you wildlife biologists,wildlife consultants and any other hunter that does not agree with him) ........so lets just move on

Since 49er takes the time and effort to document the basis for his posts, I would hardly think your ad hominem attack is justified.

That said, let us return to reasoned discussion.

yeah bigt, we could talk about buckshot....

Biting my lip.... dISCIPLINe. Don't do it!! Resist the urge.... OK, sigh. Hit submit NOW!

Well not quite i do not see him dismissing everything that people that manage wildlife for a living have to say.

If 49er and I had 1000 acres each sharing a border, I'd put up a game fence on that one side.

RMcL,
If you think 49er is carrying on a reasoned discussion then there is no hope for you either.......

I don't think you'd have many, if any bucks come from that side of the property line.

BigT, you have a point.


(Couldn't help it!)

Certainly.

In fact, "QDM" is a bit of an amorphous term. As long as you are using the basic principles of QDM, you can expand it in any number of directions and still be practicing QDM. For example, the definition of QDM describes the buck harvest restrictions designed to improve buck age structure as simply the protection of young bucks, defined as "yearlings and some 2 1/2 year-olds." As long as you are protecting yearlings and some 2 1/2 year-old bucks, you are correctly practicing the buck harvest segment of QDM. No more restrictive practices are needed. However, you CAN be more restrictive than that if you like, as many QDM practitioners are. Some protect all 2 1/2s. Some protect all 3 1/2s. I've even seen a few groups attempt to protect any buck below 5 1/2 (although I wouldn't recommend that). How far you want to take the buck age limitation is up to you. Although I would temper that with the previously discussed caveat of maintaining realistic expectations, considering the size of the property, the habitat, the deer density, and the harvest practices of neighboring hunters.

In addition to the fairly liberal definition of buck age protections required, every properties' female harvest recommendations are going to be unique to each property's situation. Some properties may need or may allow high doe harvests. Some may need modest female harvests. Some may need no female harvests. Doe harvest policies must be based on localized conditions and herd structure/density, and may end up being very different from property to property.

The above discussion doesn't even begin to discuss the reality that QDM practices are not the only management system that will produce the desired results (balanced and more natural buck age structure, adult sex ratio, and herd density). Other management practices can be used to reach those goals. In fact, many states are successfully using other practices to achieve those goals, and these practices are generally more acceptable to a wider segment of the hunting public than strict QDM.

Thanks for the response BSK........ Kinda of already knew the answer..... But would rather here it from someone with real knowledge.......

I simply pointed out that attacks directed against an individual do not a reasoned discussion make.

BSK, being serious here. You talk about other methods or mgmt systems. I like to learn as much as I can. Specifically, what are the titles and guidelines to other whitetail deer mgmt systems that achieves a balanced sex ratio and a healthy deer herd? I am aware of Traditional, ODMA's guidelines and Trophy Deer Mgmt. I am in favor of having a healthy deer herd, a healthy habitat and happy hunters. Those are my goals and I'm open to using any method that attains these.

I'm not being confrontational, please know that.

This retired coal miner studied biology, psychology and political science in college.

I learned enough about them all to recognize the differences in them.

Apparently you haven't learned enough to understand that the qdm movement is a mix of all three of those sciences, and that the biology is getting lost in the mix.

49er has said several times that his club was in the deer management program so I have a hard time understanding why people think he doesn't follow the advice of biologists?

BSK, I think you nailed it when you said QDM is an amorphous term. I perfer to site The QDMA's definition and expectations of QDM.

Those hunters that have zero concern for health of herd would like to paint QDM into a corner by saying that QDM guys think if you kill a 2.5 yr old buck, you're going to hell. THAT IS NOT TRUE!

There is room for that 2.5 yr old buck to be killed. There IS room for the first time hunter to kill whatEVER buck he or she wants.

All QDM (QDMA's definition) asked is that you understand and make an effort to protect your younger bucks (and it educates you why that's important) and harvest "adequate" does. And then there's habitat, etc... But there's nothing STRICT about it!

But if you don't believe in QDM's basic foundation/principles (supported by studies, research from multiple universities, etc... and the opinion of "most" biologists) they you'll never agree with QDM.

I think most QDM hunters just want the graph to be of any level of incline no matter how small. And if you think 10 hunters on 1000 acres can kill 3 or in some hunters' view, as many immature bucks as they want, and not hurt the herd's health, then you will probably never believe in any type of conservation, study or discipline in harvest.

Bucktrot,

As far as I know, no one has attempted to put together alternative management practices (harvest guidelines) into a organized system and then give them a specific name.

But in practice, considering fawns are born at a near equal ratio of males to females, simply harvesting adult deer in equal ratios of males and females will maintain a balanced adult sex ratio. In addition, adjusting the total number of deer harvested in an equal sex ratio will easily maintain herd density in relation to the habitat's ability to support it. So just by harvested an adequate total number of deer in equal ratios of male and females will produce two of the goals of QDM--a balanced sex ratio, and a herd density in balance with the habitat.

When it comes to advancing the buck age structure, the QDM practice of completely protecting the youngest age-classes of males is probably the quickest way to achieve that goal. However, if the local deer population can withstand an increase in buck population, simply removing (by all forms of mortality) fewer adult males than are being replaced by the recruitment of male fawns into the adult population each year WILL increase buck age structure, regardless of the ages of the bucks removed. If more adult bucks are surviving hunting season each year, more bucks are getting another year older. Although again, taking less bucks than are being recruited WILL increase the total adult buck population. In areas of excessive deer density, this probably would not be best policy UNLESS the increased buck density is compensated for by removing more females until the sex ratio is balanced. But at that point, allowing further increases in the buck population would not be wise.

The above management practices are basically what many states are using as their harvest policies (those without antler restrictions on bucks harvested). Low buck bag limits, in combination with liberal doe bag limits (that few hunters actually take advantage of), end up producing very balanced male-female harvest ratios. These sexually balanced harvest ratios, maintained over several years, WILL and ARE produced relatively balanced pre-hunt adult sex ratios. In addition, the lower buck bag limits are reducing the total harvest of bucks from what had been occurring in previous years. Reducing the total number of bucks killed each year means more bucks are living to advance in age, which over time increases buck age structure.

States like TN, that have implemented these type of harvest strategies over several years, have produced fairly significant biological results. And they have produced these positive biological results without forcing age or size-based buck harvest limitations on hunters. Now these alternate forms of management probably do not produce the desired biological results as quickly or as dramatically as forcing age/size-based buck harvest limitations, but they generally produce far higher hunter satisfaction levels than the more restrictive systems.

Who gets to define "health". For examples, a 5.5 year old buck on Sapelo Island, GA will probably on average have about a 14 or 15 inch spread and weigh 120-130 lbs live. Is that buck not healthy, or is he small?

This is exactly how I manage one property I hunt in Georgia. I only hunt there a time or two a year probably averaging 2 or 3 days a year. I am the only one hunting there. Sometimes I let a young buck walk, but since I am limiting the amount of time I hunt there, I sometimes shoot the first one that comes by. I have never killed more than one buck in a year off that place. The herd is still expanding and I only kill a doe about every 2 or 3 years for now.

Because I don't focus on the age of the buck, bucks from all age classes get to move up another year except for the one per year I shoot.

If he was in the state's old DMP program, I'm betting all the management he got was shoot does, pull jaws, send them in and we'll guess how old they are. Plan for next year..... see plan for last year. Been there, done that. If he bases QDM on the old DMP program, I can see why he's misguided.

Hmmmm..... still waiting on how to identify "the dominant buck".