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For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd #4104797
03/21/24 08:30 PM
03/21/24 08:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 305
Northwest Alabama
SEWoodsWhitetail Offline OP
4 point
SEWoodsWhitetail  Offline OP
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Posts: 305
Northwest Alabama
This is always a fun topic…

5 acre field on a property with around 20 acres of plots. Bordered directly by 5 acres of heavy TSI and 11 acres of thinned pines, both of which have been burned in the last 3 years. Also bordered by a 2yr old, 2 acre clearcut that has been allowed to get thick and will be burned for the first time this year or next.

Shot over 20 does between us and the neighbors. Had pictures of at least 4 deer in field just after we left.

They’re keeping it mowed to the ground. Need some more habitat improvement and some more doe killing.

[Linked Image]


In a world of food plotters, be a habitat manager.
https://woodsandwhitetail.com/
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104808
03/21/24 08:39 PM
03/21/24 08:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,249
Awbarn, AL
CNC Online content
Dances With Weeds
CNC  Online Content
Dances With Weeds
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Posts: 22,249
Awbarn, AL
Looks about right to me.......If the whole field looked like the inside of the cage (unused) then what would be the point?

Last edited by CNC; 03/21/24 08:40 PM.

We dont rent pigs
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104815
03/21/24 08:51 PM
03/21/24 08:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2021
Posts: 3,220
North Al.
P
Paint Rock 00 Online content
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North Al.
OKAY what cha going to do. Folks looking for a place to hunt every year…… invite them to kill a doe or just. …. as above what cha saying

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104830
03/21/24 09:06 PM
03/21/24 09:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,181
alabama
B
BigEd Online content
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BigEd  Online Content
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alabama
More doe killing won't help. I have a somewhat similar situation. For 20 years there were an average of 14 does a year killed in the field. Didn't matter how many you killed there were just as many the next year. My cousin and I got tired of killing them, we still see equivalent numbers, not more not less, and the same ratio of bucks. There was only one deer killed this year, a 4.5 yo 9 point. Hopefully the bucks we let walk made it, there are 2 will be 4.5yo or better next year. Some decent younguns coming along also. We may invite some kids to come kill a doe or three this year just because.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104833
03/21/24 09:10 PM
03/21/24 09:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,605
Tuscaloosa
H
hawndog Offline
8 point
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Tuscaloosa
Yes if you want more deer you have to kill all the does. This if the proof right here.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104843
03/21/24 09:15 PM
03/21/24 09:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 22,592
blount county alabama
jwalker77 Offline
Pumpkin
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Pumpkin
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blount county alabama
Sounds like you need more food

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104858
03/21/24 09:40 PM
03/21/24 09:40 PM
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Posts: 11,335
Earth
TDog93 Offline
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Earth
Thats why he shot more does


Hunt the wind - leave it better than you found it - love your neighbor as you love your self
We need prayer for our country now more than ever
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104869
03/21/24 09:58 PM
03/21/24 09:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,447
Here
Okatuppa Online content
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If that picture was taken today, that’s a pitiful amount of growth inside the cage.


I ain't fightin nobody that swings around in trees with a running chainsaw like Tarzan. - FurFlyin

Oh I just thought u were a dumba$$ 🤣 my apologies… - jb20
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Okatuppa] #4104887
03/21/24 10:19 PM
03/21/24 10:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 305
Northwest Alabama
SEWoodsWhitetail Offline OP
4 point
SEWoodsWhitetail  Offline OP
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Northwest Alabama
That’s about 4” of clover and everything else is taller than that…

This field has had nothing but chicken litter since I can remember and these ridge tops don’t exactly have the best soil


In a world of food plotters, be a habitat manager.
https://woodsandwhitetail.com/
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: jwalker77] #4104908
03/22/24 04:22 AM
03/22/24 04:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 21,821
USA
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Remington270 Offline
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In all seriousness, most areas of Alabama don't "need" more does to be killed. Kill one if you want, but you're not doing the world some great service of charity by doing it.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104973
03/22/24 08:07 AM
03/22/24 08:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,989
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
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Boxes Cove
Remember , you can have a lot of deer if you have food for them.



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4104992
03/22/24 08:38 AM
03/22/24 08:38 AM
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Tuscaloosa Co.
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N2TRKYS Offline
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Wouldn’t take many deer to keep that foodplot mowed down.


83% of all statistics are made up.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4105020
03/22/24 09:09 AM
03/22/24 09:09 AM
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BPI Offline
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Some places have too many. Some don't. you can't cookie cut every situation. Looks like you did what you needed to do SE

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: BPI] #4105051
03/22/24 09:53 AM
03/22/24 09:53 AM
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Posts: 34,989
Boxes Cove
2Dogs Offline
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Boxes Cove
Originally Posted by BPI
Some places have too many. Some don't. you can't cookie cut every situation. Looks like you did what you needed to do SE


Wait, what! Some places have too many ?!



"Why do you ask"?

Always vote the slowest path to socialism.







Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4105085
03/22/24 10:52 AM
03/22/24 10:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,311
colbert county
cartervj Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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colbert county
Is killing does the new Covid


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: 2Dogs] #4105099
03/22/24 11:19 AM
03/22/24 11:19 AM
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abolt300 Offline
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Originally Posted by 2Dogs
Originally Posted by BPI
Some places have too many. Some don't. you can't cookie cut every situation. Looks like you did what you needed to do SE


Wait, what! Some places have too many ?!


He hasn't had his one on one site visit and personal meeting with CNC yet. Harold will show him the light and get him corrected.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: abolt300] #4105108
03/22/24 11:39 AM
03/22/24 11:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,249
Awbarn, AL
CNC Online content
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
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Awbarn, AL
Originally Posted by abolt300


He hasn't had his one on one site visit and personal meeting with CNC yet. Harold will show him the light and get him corrected.


Just my opinion but the best thing you could do with a field like this is leave it alone and let it be a “constant” on the landscape year after year where bucks for miles around know there will be a high concentration of does at this spot come rut……There’s not a 5-10 acre foodplot full of does on every corner. Screw using it as a place to whack does…..You can do that over a corn pile in the camp yard or something…..A field like this should be good for whacking a stud or two every year


We dont rent pigs
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4105155
03/22/24 01:36 PM
03/22/24 01:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,244
B'ham
Goatkiller Offline
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B'ham


I planted a food plot for the deer. It didn't grow all that well. I shot as many as I could but they just kept eating it?

..... WTH is that?

When it is patchy dirt that's when it's "mowed to the ground". That's not it.


No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4105193
03/22/24 02:52 PM
03/22/24 02:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 682
Here
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Chiller Offline
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In my opinion. That is not mowed down. Looks normal to me. If the field looked like the inside of the cage OR the field was bare dirt and the inside of the cage was like it is now, that's when I would do some adjustments.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: 2Dogs] #4105253
03/22/24 04:02 PM
03/22/24 04:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 22,592
blount county alabama
jwalker77 Offline
Pumpkin
jwalker77  Offline
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blount county alabama
Originally Posted by 2Dogs
Remember , you can have a lot of deer if you have food for them.

Yep. More food = more deer, unless you kill the deer factories.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4105265
03/22/24 04:37 PM
03/22/24 04:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,462
Central Alabama
MC21 Offline
10 point
MC21  Offline
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Posts: 3,462
Central Alabama
Im really confused here. Are the deer on this property starving? it looks like a well used field to me. Not sure how one is supposed to determine if there are too many deer on this property from this picture. I got invited to a 500 acre property this year because they "had to many does" there fields looked a lot worse than this. They had not taken a doe off of that property in over 5 years. they also did not allow gun hunting on that property until after Christmas and you couldn't shoot a doe with a rifle. so when I went i took my crossbow. I was sitting on a 1/2 acre plot with a corn pile 40 yards in front of my stand. I had 11 deer come in to that corn pile at around 4 in the afternoon. I shot the biggest doe in the group. The 3 guys that hunted the property were hunting that day and they all saw at least 6 or more does and we all killed a doe that afternoon. They wanted 5 does killed off the property and we almost did it that in one afternoon. Even though I was happy to shoot a doe for them, I'm still not sold that they had "too many does" every deer we killed was close to 100 pounds I don't think they were starving.

So my question is how do you determine when there are to many deer on a property? This is directed at the OP

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: MC21] #4105344
03/22/24 06:15 PM
03/22/24 06:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,626
Elmore County
T
treemydog Online content
8 point
treemydog  Online Content
8 point
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Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,626
Elmore County
Originally Posted by MC21
So my question is how do you determine when there are to many deer on a property?


Million dollar question. And don't let anyone tell you that a quick site visit and property walk through can give anyone the answer.


You gonna pull them pistols, or whistle Dixie?
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: MC21] #4105367
03/22/24 07:02 PM
03/22/24 07:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 305
Northwest Alabama
SEWoodsWhitetail Offline OP
4 point
SEWoodsWhitetail  Offline OP
4 point
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 305
Northwest Alabama
Originally Posted by MC21
Im really confused here. Are the deer on this property starving? it looks like a well used field to me. Not sure how one is supposed to determine if there are too many deer on this property from this picture. I got invited to a 500 acre property this year because they "had to many does" there fields looked a lot worse than this. They had not taken a doe off of that property in over 5 years. they also did not allow gun hunting on that property until after Christmas and you couldn't shoot a doe with a rifle. so when I went i took my crossbow. I was sitting on a 1/2 acre plot with a corn pile 40 yards in front of my stand. I had 11 deer come in to that corn pile at around 4 in the afternoon. I shot the biggest doe in the group. The 3 guys that hunted the property were hunting that day and they all saw at least 6 or more does and we all killed a doe that afternoon. They wanted 5 does killed off the property and we almost did it that in one afternoon. Even though I was happy to shoot a doe for them, I'm still not sold that they had "too many does" every deer we killed was close to 100 pounds I don't think they were starving.

So my question is how do you determine when there are to many deer on a property? This is directed at the OP


It depends on what your goals are. If all you want to do is see the maximum amount of deer, then don't shoot does. My goal is to grow mature bucks that express their maximum potential.

Antlers are an indication of excess in a buck's life and there is higher competition for resources on my property than I'd like. My deer aren't starving, but I don't want any nutritional stress, or any other stress for that matter, on my deer at any stage of their lives to a greater extent than what is absolutely guaranteed.


In a world of food plotters, be a habitat manager.
https://woodsandwhitetail.com/
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4105610
03/23/24 09:56 AM
03/23/24 09:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 11,335
Earth
TDog93 Offline
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TDog93  Offline
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Earth
^^^
Yes

And i dont shoot many does in tville cause i dont hav huge numbers amd did not shoot them on plots this year

I hate the stress on shooting lot of does and i need to shoot many in camden - just hav not taken the time. The huge numbers not only eat most of the food - they spook bucks off the food - got some old matriarch snorters that been needing to go - they snort at nothing when wind right

And my deer n camden way - way thinner - all places dont hav unlimited food - u hav a carrying capacity

I got a couple of studs n tville that can reach some potential next year if they make it. Hate the rain but great for growing deer

Lot less eyes around your field to if not over run


Hunt the wind - leave it better than you found it - love your neighbor as you love your self
We need prayer for our country now more than ever
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4105650
03/23/24 10:46 AM
03/23/24 10:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,447
Here
Okatuppa Online content
10 point
Okatuppa  Online Content
10 point
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Here
Based on the acreages that you stated in your original post, you’re gonna need a high fence.


I ain't fightin nobody that swings around in trees with a running chainsaw like Tarzan. - FurFlyin

Oh I just thought u were a dumba$$ 🤣 my apologies… - jb20
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4106717
03/25/24 03:34 PM
03/25/24 03:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 8,573
Chelsea
L
Lockjaw Offline
14 point
Lockjaw  Offline
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Posts: 8,573
Chelsea
Wait you want to grow mature bucks that express their potential, but did I read right that field isn't even soil tested?

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4106740
03/25/24 04:10 PM
03/25/24 04:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,406
Crenshaw
C
CrappieMan Online content
8 point
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Crenshaw
Let's just say you have a 2.5 yr old on your property that shows genetic potential to blow up to 150 plus. His momma may have had the genetic that was passed to him. Start killing does and you may kill off your dominant genetic.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: CrappieMan] #4106974
03/26/24 05:24 AM
03/26/24 05:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,311
colbert county
cartervj Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
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colbert county
Originally Posted by CrappieMan
Let's just say you have a 2.5 yr old on your property that shows genetic potential to blow up to 150 plus. His momma may have had the genetic that was passed to him. Start killing does and you may kill off your dominant genetic.



You’ll never know. Odds would be momma doe would be a few miles away.


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4106975
03/26/24 05:26 AM
03/26/24 05:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,311
colbert county
cartervj Offline
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
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Posts: 19,311
colbert county
If that pic is very recent that is a lot of browsing pressure. This time of year food sources especially this year, are pretty ample for browsing deer.


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Lockjaw] #4107293
03/26/24 01:23 PM
03/26/24 01:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 305
Northwest Alabama
SEWoodsWhitetail Offline OP
4 point
SEWoodsWhitetail  Offline OP
4 point
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Posts: 305
Northwest Alabama
Originally Posted by Lockjaw
Wait you want to grow mature bucks that express their potential, but did I read right that field isn't even soil tested?



I have a soil test on my plots. This particular plot has a pH around 6.5 and I could fertilize it exactly to spec, but

1. It's cheaper to have chicken litter spread.
2. I don't have to spread it
3. It's not as bad for the soil as extensive use of synthetic fertilizers.
4. It still works well


In a world of food plotters, be a habitat manager.
https://woodsandwhitetail.com/
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4107633
03/27/24 04:15 AM
03/27/24 04:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 25,688
South Alabama
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Rebelman Offline
Freak of Nature
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South Alabama
Remember all the fun you had seeing and shooting does so you can tell your children/grandchildren stories of the he good ole days.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4107705
03/27/24 08:39 AM
03/27/24 08:39 AM
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Posts: 26,518
Helena
3
3toe Offline
Talking Turkey
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Helena
Have you seen any negative impacts on your turkeys after spreading all the chicken litter? Not trying to derail, but the mention of chicken litter being spread had me wanting to ask the question.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: 3toe] #4107709
03/27/24 08:50 AM
03/27/24 08:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
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Clanton
Turkey_neck Offline
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Originally Posted by 3toe
Have you seen any negative impacts on your turkeys after spreading all the chicken litter? Not trying to derail, but the mention of chicken litter being spread had me wanting to ask the question.

That was my first thought I ain’t allowing it on my property.


Would walk over a naked woman to get to a gobblin turkey!
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4107742
03/27/24 09:35 AM
03/27/24 09:35 AM
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Posts: 8,573
Chelsea
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Lockjaw Offline
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Chelsea
My best understanding from all the research I have done is the best way to have better quality bucks starts with a healthy doe. Be that your food quality, which I think plays a big role, to limiting the number of doe's, you have to start there. I run alot of cameras on different green fields, and the fields I have that get the most traffic usually have whitetail clover/fusion growing, and the soil is darker. I just planted a field in bulldog alfalfa, so I will be interested to see what happens with it.

I think its also important to have good food available when the deer need it. They really need it coming out of the rut and into fawning time. I also think, especially in Alabama, that you have to have something that is strong into August and September. If its dry, the stuff in the woods dries up in a hurry. Thats why I like clover so much, but if its dry, then it struggles some too. Sunn Hemp is my go to there.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Turkey_neck] #4107769
03/27/24 10:20 AM
03/27/24 10:20 AM
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Xroads
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Originally Posted by Turkey_neck
Originally Posted by 3toe
Have you seen any negative impacts on your turkeys after spreading all the chicken litter? Not trying to derail, but the mention of chicken litter being spread had me wanting to ask the question.

That was my first thought I ain’t allowing it on my property.



I have heard this, my neighbor who just uses his place to hunt strictly forbids it for that reason. I have cattle and use it on my pastures and hay fields all the time. Neither of have seen where it has effected the turkey population in any way. Not saying it won't, but hasn't for me

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4108029
03/27/24 07:53 PM
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Doe harvest should be objective driven. If it’s not achieving your objectives, then don’t do it. If it is then do it. I’m sure he’s got very justifiable reasons for wanting to kill a few does, just like some of you don’t. Doe harvest is not a one size fits all.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: 3toe] #4108294
03/28/24 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 3toe
Have you seen any negative impacts on your turkeys after spreading all the chicken litter? Not trying to derail, but the mention of chicken litter being spread had me wanting to ask the question.


I had concerns when we first started spreading the chicken litter, but our turkey numbers have only continued to grow.


In a world of food plotters, be a habitat manager.
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Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4108301
03/28/24 10:45 AM
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It's not loaded directly from the chicken houses onto the truck either. They pile it and allow it to compost for a while and apparently this breaks down the pathogens.


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https://woodsandwhitetail.com/
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: BigEd] #4127604
05/06/24 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BigEd
More doe killing won't help. I have a somewhat similar situation. For 20 years there were an average of 14 does a year killed in the field. Didn't matter how many you killed there were just as many the next year. My cousin and I got tired of killing them, we still see equivalent numbers, not more not less, and the same ratio of bucks. There was only one deer killed this year, a 4.5 yo 9 point. Hopefully the bucks we let walk made it, there are 2 will be 4.5yo or better next year. Some decent younguns coming along also. We may invite some kids to come kill a doe or three this year just because.


Listen to what you're saying! You killed does and "There were just as many the next year." Wouldn't it make sense that had you not killed 14 does that you'd had those 14 does plus, let's say 1.5 fawns per doe which would be 21 fawns plus the 14 does. That's 31 extra deer you'd seen! You can't look at it like you're looking at it. You're totally missing the deer you took out of the herd and you're TOTALLY missing the offspring that would have been there. Approx 11 of those fawns would have been bucks, but don't worry about the bucks that could've been. The key is to keep the carrying capacity of the land in check. AND... carrying capacity changes each year.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Antlerfluke] #4127826
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Originally Posted by Antlerfluke
Originally Posted by BigEd
More doe killing won't help. I have a somewhat similar situation. For 20 years there were an average of 14 does a year killed in the field. Didn't matter how many you killed there were just as many the next year. My cousin and I got tired of killing them, we still see equivalent numbers, not more not less, and the same ratio of bucks. There was only one deer killed this year, a 4.5 yo 9 point. Hopefully the bucks we let walk made it, there are 2 will be 4.5yo or better next year. Some decent younguns coming along also. We may invite some kids to come kill a doe or three this year just because.


Listen to what you're saying! You killed does and "There were just as many the next year." Wouldn't it make sense that had you not killed 14 does that you'd had those 14 does plus, let's say 1.5 fawns per doe which would be 21 fawns plus the 14 does. That's 31 extra deer you'd seen! You can't look at it like you're looking at it. You're totally missing the deer you took out of the herd and you're TOTALLY missing the offspring that would have been there. Approx 11 of those fawns would have been bucks, but don't worry about the bucks that could've been. The key is to keep the carrying capacity of the land in check. AND... carrying capacity changes each year.


And on a property that small, all 11 of those buck fawns born to the does living there, would have dispersed off onto surrounding properties in a 2-10 mile radius. Do some research on buck fawn dispersal. Unless you’ve got thousands of acres, 90% of the young bucks you see on your property will have been born somewhere else and dispersed over onto you. It’s a major reason why what your neighbors and neighbors neighbors are doing and shooting, really affects what you’re able to do and accomplish management wise on your property

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: abolt300] #4127918
05/07/24 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by abolt300
Originally Posted by Antlerfluke
Originally Posted by BigEd
More doe killing won't help. I have a somewhat similar situation. For 20 years there were an average of 14 does a year killed in the field. Didn't matter how many you killed there were just as many the next year. My cousin and I got tired of killing them, we still see equivalent numbers, not more not less, and the same ratio of bucks. There was only one deer killed this year, a 4.5 yo 9 point. Hopefully the bucks we let walk made it, there are 2 will be 4.5yo or better next year. Some decent younguns coming along also. We may invite some kids to come kill a doe or three this year just because.


Listen to what you're saying! You killed does and "There were just as many the next year." Wouldn't it make sense that had you not killed 14 does that you'd had those 14 does plus, let's say 1.5 fawns per doe which would be 21 fawns plus the 14 does. That's 31 extra deer you'd seen! You can't look at it like you're looking at it. You're totally missing the deer you took out of the herd and you're TOTALLY missing the offspring that would have been there. Approx 11 of those fawns would have been bucks, but don't worry about the bucks that could've been. The key is to keep the carrying capacity of the land in check. AND... carrying capacity changes each year.


And on a property that small, all 11 of those buck fawns born to the does living there, would have dispersed off onto surrounding properties in a 2-10 mile radius. Do some research on buck fawn dispersal. Unless you’ve got thousands of acres, 90% of the young bucks you see on your property will have been born somewhere else and dispersed over onto you. It’s a major reason why what your neighbors and neighbors neighbors are doing and shooting, really affects what you’re able to do and accomplish management wise on your property

I’ve tried to explain that to ppl with very little success doing so. The overwhelming majority of bucks on your property were not born there, and the ones that are you’re supplying to someone else. When I get these comments about “that deer has got to be the son of so and so that I killed a few years ago”, I know they don’t even have the most basic understanding of antler heritability or fawn dispersal. That’s just not how things work lol.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128243
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So Mbrock and Abolt300... what acreage would you say it takes for a deer to be hunted on the same land it was born on? If all the bucks born on your property pretty much leave, should the goal of having healthy does and fawns change to trying to attract more spikes and 2 year olds? Or are the paths to both those goals the same?

I'm trying to decide if trapping coyotes should even be a concern anymore since those buck fawns wouldn't have stayed on my property anyways. Let the coyotes kill the fawns to make more room for the bucks coming in from other properties.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Pwyse] #4128280
05/07/24 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Pwyse
So Mbrock and Abolt300... what acreage would you say it takes for a deer to be hunted on the same land it was born on? If all the bucks born on your property pretty much leave, should the goal of having healthy does and fawns change to trying to attract more spikes and 2 year olds? Or are the paths to both those goals the same?

I'm trying to decide if trapping coyotes should even be a concern anymore since those buck fawns wouldn't have stayed on my property anyways. Let the coyotes kill the fawns to make more room for the bucks coming in from other properties.

Yotes eat young doe fawns also...


Dying ain't much of a living boy...Josey Wales

Molon Labe
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: AU338MAG] #4128292
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Originally Posted by AU338MAG
Originally Posted by Pwyse
So Mbrock and Abolt300... what acreage would you say it takes for a deer to be hunted on the same land it was born on? If all the bucks born on your property pretty much leave, should the goal of having healthy does and fawns change to trying to attract more spikes and 2 year olds? Or are the paths to both those goals the same?

I'm trying to decide if trapping coyotes should even be a concern anymore since those buck fawns wouldn't have stayed on my property anyways. Let the coyotes kill the fawns to make more room for the bucks coming in from other properties.

Yotes eat young doe fawns also...


Right... but wouldn't that make room for the bucks coming in?

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128395
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Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Mbrock] #4128424
05/08/24 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbrock
Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.
This post is gold, and what I’ve been trying to explain to folks forever. The overall picture is much much larger than a few hundred or a thousand acres. I think it rings true for the doe control argument as well. If you have prime habitat, and remove x amount of does, don’t you think x amount more could move in? If your carrying capacity holds it why not have it.

Last edited by Forrestgump1; 05/08/24 05:07 AM.
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Mbrock] #4128468
05/08/24 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbrock
Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.


Excellent post, that explains it pretty plainly.......

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128655
05/08/24 01:43 PM
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Lol ever yote I see won't be part of the landscape for long . They can be thinned out

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Mbrock] #4128696
05/08/24 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbrock
Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.



When you mention earn their place. Did that play a role in antler development. Everything else is contributing factor for sure with that quality habitat. I’m just curious does competition play a role in antler development. Some the last things I read they were probing social hierarchy playing a role or thought to in antler characteristics.


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128701
05/08/24 03:29 PM
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I certainly think it does but I have no way to quantify it here. Social stress is one of the biggest contributors to poor antler development.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128702
05/08/24 03:31 PM
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But now we have a high percentage of older age class bucks which limits stress and competition on younger deer. They have limited social stress in summer due to an abundance of resources. The resource availability don’t really change in fall and winter, but what does change is their tolerance of each other.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128714
05/08/24 03:49 PM
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Speaking of coyote depredation . Ft rucker put some good info out years ago about this. Best i recall , they concluded coyotes were responsible for north of 70% fawn mortality. Its an eye opener for sure

Last edited by hamma; 05/08/24 03:58 PM.
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: hamma] #4128748
05/08/24 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hamma
Speaking of coyote depredation . Ft rucker put some good info out years ago about this. Best i recall , they concluded coyotes were responsible for north of 70% fawn mortality. Its an eye opener for sure

It varies on each study site, but yeah they’re pretty efficient. The best way to combat it is trap immediately before peak fawning, provide adequate herbaceous cover for fawns and tightening the breeding window by correcting buck:doe ratios.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128771
05/08/24 06:35 PM
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I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Pwyse] #4128836
05/08/24 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Forrestgump1] #4128933
05/09/24 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.


Coyotes and bobcats. I watched a Gamekeeper podcast not long ago where they were talking about this. I forget the name of the researcher they had on as a guest, but he was very adamant that coyotes and bobcats were the main culprits when it came to failed nest. Basically the coyote or bobcat would kill the nested hen and then nest predators would come in later and eat the eggs. However, there are other researchers out there that disagree with him so I don’t think the science is settled.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Forrestgump1] #4128964
05/09/24 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.

We found some coyote crap other day that had pieces of a Gobbler beard in it. We'd had a nice Gobbler in the area (on cam) and he disappeared, guess we know what happened to him now 🫤😡🫤


Do not regret growing older, it's a privilege denied to many!

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: James] #4128974
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Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.

We found some coyote crap other day that had pieces of a Gobbler beard in it. We'd had a nice Gobbler in the area (on cam) and he disappeared, guess we know what happened to him now 🫤😡🫤

I have a buddy in KS who owns a bird dog. He was walking his property with his kids and dog a few days ago when they walked up on a gobbler with a hen. The dog ran right behind the gobbler, as he was wasn’t paying any attention, and was focused on his hen, and killed him. Just like that. If a dang domestic dog can kill a turkey by happenstance, you know a coyote can.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4129290
05/09/24 06:23 PM
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Reason I unalive all the damn stray cats i get here . I know they getting a few . I hate them as bad as coyote

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4133317
05/17/24 08:15 PM
05/17/24 08:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 5,255
Your Lock-on
W
Whild_Bill Online content
Crawfishing Asshat
Whild_Bill  Online Content
Crawfishing Asshat
W
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 5,255
Your Lock-on
We only kill young does fine for shooting a mature doe plus the younger deer eat better you don’t want to kill the good mommas you was them in your property


We Just Know What Works For Us
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4133331
05/17/24 08:29 PM
05/17/24 08:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,163
USA
M
marshmud991 Offline
14 point
marshmud991  Offline
14 point
M
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,163
USA
This is the best part of killing does!![Linked Image]


It's hard to kiss the lips at night that chews your a$$ all day long.


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