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Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: abolt300] #4127918
05/07/24 07:43 AM
05/07/24 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by abolt300
Originally Posted by Antlerfluke
Originally Posted by BigEd
More doe killing won't help. I have a somewhat similar situation. For 20 years there were an average of 14 does a year killed in the field. Didn't matter how many you killed there were just as many the next year. My cousin and I got tired of killing them, we still see equivalent numbers, not more not less, and the same ratio of bucks. There was only one deer killed this year, a 4.5 yo 9 point. Hopefully the bucks we let walk made it, there are 2 will be 4.5yo or better next year. Some decent younguns coming along also. We may invite some kids to come kill a doe or three this year just because.


Listen to what you're saying! You killed does and "There were just as many the next year." Wouldn't it make sense that had you not killed 14 does that you'd had those 14 does plus, let's say 1.5 fawns per doe which would be 21 fawns plus the 14 does. That's 31 extra deer you'd seen! You can't look at it like you're looking at it. You're totally missing the deer you took out of the herd and you're TOTALLY missing the offspring that would have been there. Approx 11 of those fawns would have been bucks, but don't worry about the bucks that could've been. The key is to keep the carrying capacity of the land in check. AND... carrying capacity changes each year.


And on a property that small, all 11 of those buck fawns born to the does living there, would have dispersed off onto surrounding properties in a 2-10 mile radius. Do some research on buck fawn dispersal. Unless you’ve got thousands of acres, 90% of the young bucks you see on your property will have been born somewhere else and dispersed over onto you. It’s a major reason why what your neighbors and neighbors neighbors are doing and shooting, really affects what you’re able to do and accomplish management wise on your property

I’ve tried to explain that to ppl with very little success doing so. The overwhelming majority of bucks on your property were not born there, and the ones that are you’re supplying to someone else. When I get these comments about “that deer has got to be the son of so and so that I killed a few years ago”, I know they don’t even have the most basic understanding of antler heritability or fawn dispersal. That’s just not how things work lol.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128243
05/07/24 06:49 PM
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So Mbrock and Abolt300... what acreage would you say it takes for a deer to be hunted on the same land it was born on? If all the bucks born on your property pretty much leave, should the goal of having healthy does and fawns change to trying to attract more spikes and 2 year olds? Or are the paths to both those goals the same?

I'm trying to decide if trapping coyotes should even be a concern anymore since those buck fawns wouldn't have stayed on my property anyways. Let the coyotes kill the fawns to make more room for the bucks coming in from other properties.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Pwyse] #4128280
05/07/24 07:57 PM
05/07/24 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Pwyse
So Mbrock and Abolt300... what acreage would you say it takes for a deer to be hunted on the same land it was born on? If all the bucks born on your property pretty much leave, should the goal of having healthy does and fawns change to trying to attract more spikes and 2 year olds? Or are the paths to both those goals the same?

I'm trying to decide if trapping coyotes should even be a concern anymore since those buck fawns wouldn't have stayed on my property anyways. Let the coyotes kill the fawns to make more room for the bucks coming in from other properties.

Yotes eat young doe fawns also...


Dying ain't much of a living boy...Josey Wales

Molon Labe
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: AU338MAG] #4128292
05/07/24 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AU338MAG
Originally Posted by Pwyse
So Mbrock and Abolt300... what acreage would you say it takes for a deer to be hunted on the same land it was born on? If all the bucks born on your property pretty much leave, should the goal of having healthy does and fawns change to trying to attract more spikes and 2 year olds? Or are the paths to both those goals the same?

I'm trying to decide if trapping coyotes should even be a concern anymore since those buck fawns wouldn't have stayed on my property anyways. Let the coyotes kill the fawns to make more room for the bucks coming in from other properties.

Yotes eat young doe fawns also...


Right... but wouldn't that make room for the bucks coming in?

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128395
05/07/24 10:17 PM
05/07/24 10:17 PM
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Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Mbrock] #4128424
05/08/24 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbrock
Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.
This post is gold, and what I’ve been trying to explain to folks forever. The overall picture is much much larger than a few hundred or a thousand acres. I think it rings true for the doe control argument as well. If you have prime habitat, and remove x amount of does, don’t you think x amount more could move in? If your carrying capacity holds it why not have it.

Last edited by Forrestgump1; 05/08/24 05:07 AM.
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Mbrock] #4128468
05/08/24 07:39 AM
05/08/24 07:39 AM
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Louisiana to Central AL
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Originally Posted by Mbrock
Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.


Excellent post, that explains it pretty plainly.......

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128655
05/08/24 01:43 PM
05/08/24 01:43 PM
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Elmore County
Frankie Offline
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Lol ever yote I see won't be part of the landscape for long . They can be thinned out

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Mbrock] #4128696
05/08/24 03:19 PM
05/08/24 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbrock
Pwyse whether we like it or not coyotes are a substantial part of deer mortality on certain landscapes. Research out of South Carolina has pretty much negated any long term benefits to coyote control. It can be effective short term, but there’s so many transient (without a defined home range) coyotes on the landscape they quickly fill any voids from trapping. I’m not saying don’t trap. I’m not saying don’t shoot coyotes. I’m simply saying I manage deer herds now with a different perspective than I used to, and focus on providing key habitat requirements for successful fawning and rearing, plus nutritional needs for lactation and antler growth. If you’re providing those things, dispersing young bucks will utilize what you have. One of the primary places I manage is an absolute freak show for summer bachelor groups and development. Why? Because we are providing a lot of biomass in herbaceous growth and cover. It attracts a lot of bucks during antler growth and recovery. So many, in fact, they can’t all coexist on the same acreage when fall rolls around. So we, in theory, are benefiting a lot of other hunters those bucks disperse to, after spending half the year here. Does are in superb physical condition, and produce mostly twins, with some triplets, and they also disperse to surrounding properties. But let me tell you we pull a ton of 1-2 year olds that decide they want to stay. They just have to earn their place due to so much competition for great resources. I’d love to start a fawn capture study there and follow some of the fawns that do hang around, because right now I have some theories on some of the bucks that do stay. We pull a lot of runt looking 80 lb spikes from miles away that were born on poor habitat, and they don’t look like the same deer as some of our 125 lb 8 point one year olds that I’m fairly sure are born here and decide to stay. It’s very few though. Over the years we’ve seen a very high increase in fork antlered 1 year olds, but we are managing several square miles. That’s enough property to hold some of the bucks being born there.



When you mention earn their place. Did that play a role in antler development. Everything else is contributing factor for sure with that quality habitat. I’m just curious does competition play a role in antler development. Some the last things I read they were probing social hierarchy playing a role or thought to in antler characteristics.


“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128701
05/08/24 03:29 PM
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I certainly think it does but I have no way to quantify it here. Social stress is one of the biggest contributors to poor antler development.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128702
05/08/24 03:31 PM
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But now we have a high percentage of older age class bucks which limits stress and competition on younger deer. They have limited social stress in summer due to an abundance of resources. The resource availability don’t really change in fall and winter, but what does change is their tolerance of each other.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128714
05/08/24 03:49 PM
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Speaking of coyote depredation . Ft rucker put some good info out years ago about this. Best i recall , they concluded coyotes were responsible for north of 70% fawn mortality. Its an eye opener for sure

Last edited by hamma; 05/08/24 03:58 PM.
Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: hamma] #4128748
05/08/24 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hamma
Speaking of coyote depredation . Ft rucker put some good info out years ago about this. Best i recall , they concluded coyotes were responsible for north of 70% fawn mortality. Its an eye opener for sure

It varies on each study site, but yeah they’re pretty efficient. The best way to combat it is trap immediately before peak fawning, provide adequate herbaceous cover for fawns and tightening the breeding window by correcting buck:doe ratios.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4128771
05/08/24 06:35 PM
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I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Pwyse] #4128836
05/08/24 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Forrestgump1] #4128933
05/09/24 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.


Coyotes and bobcats. I watched a Gamekeeper podcast not long ago where they were talking about this. I forget the name of the researcher they had on as a guest, but he was very adamant that coyotes and bobcats were the main culprits when it came to failed nest. Basically the coyote or bobcat would kill the nested hen and then nest predators would come in later and eat the eggs. However, there are other researchers out there that disagree with him so I don’t think the science is settled.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: Forrestgump1] #4128964
05/09/24 06:56 AM
05/09/24 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.

We found some coyote crap other day that had pieces of a Gobbler beard in it. We'd had a nice Gobbler in the area (on cam) and he disappeared, guess we know what happened to him now 🫤😡🫤


Do not regret growing older, it's a privilege denied to many!

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: James] #4128974
05/09/24 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by Forrestgump1
Originally Posted by Pwyse
I try to trap at the right time to create a void of coyotes during fawning. I used to do the same with coons during turkey nesting. Will have to get back in both of them this year.

I believe there’s research now showing if you want to save your turkeys you need to be more concerned with the coyotes than coons.

We found some coyote crap other day that had pieces of a Gobbler beard in it. We'd had a nice Gobbler in the area (on cam) and he disappeared, guess we know what happened to him now 🫤😡🫤

I have a buddy in KS who owns a bird dog. He was walking his property with his kids and dog a few days ago when they walked up on a gobbler with a hen. The dog ran right behind the gobbler, as he was wasn’t paying any attention, and was focused on his hen, and killed him. Just like that. If a dang domestic dog can kill a turkey by happenstance, you know a coyote can.

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4129290
05/09/24 06:23 PM
05/09/24 06:23 PM
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Elmore County
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Reason I unalive all the damn stray cats i get here . I know they getting a few . I hate them as bad as coyote

Re: For the Don’t Shoot Does Crowd [Re: SEWoodsWhitetail] #4133317
05/17/24 08:15 PM
05/17/24 08:15 PM
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Your Lock-on
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We only kill young does fine for shooting a mature doe plus the younger deer eat better you don’t want to kill the good mommas you was them in your property


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