Do red deer move around in big herds?? That'd be cool to introduce as the grazer.

They got deep pockets so they probably just plant stuff and supplemental feed. That’s what I’m talking about.

Well, I don't think it's food related at all. Ultimately, it's poult related. They stopped producing poults for some reason, and based on what Carter has posted I think it's likely that it was just natural. Turkeys were restocked in his area after a decades long absence and the population boomed to a level that was unnatural and unsustainable. Everyone thought it was normal, but it wasn't. The population went down. Hunters and landowners demanded that the state "do something" to return them to the glory days, but they were asking for the impossible. Now the population is reaching a level that might be sustainable, and it wasn't due to any new laws - it was just the natural thing to happen.

Food is relevant as far as as holding turkeys at a specific place. Turkeys are like every other creature and want the easiest life possible. There is NOTHING that can compete with a pile of corn. No matter how good your habitat might be, if your neighbors are feeding corn the turkeys will live with them.

My belief is that food is mostly irrelevant in most of Alabama when it comes to turkey survival. If they are able to survive the first couple of months or so of life, they will find plenty of food to eat. They may have to range further, but they are not going to starve to death. If something happens to your habitat, like a very large area being clearcut, your turkeys will leave you, but they won't die; they'll just go somewhere else. The limiting factor on turkeys is always poult recruitment.

Yep. Food is not the issue. It’s a non factor on overall population growth or decline.

Reread this PCP and think about what you’re saying….especially the parts I underlined…….Why is it unsustainable if food doesnt matter? Are you joining Matt with the it happened “just because” theory??

There’s just no way I can wrap my head around the idea that food is a non-factor to a bird that spends 90% of its life walking around pecking stuff. As it concerns poult recruitment, how critical is it for a poult to get the proper diet in the first few months?? Could that be a factor?.....What about hens producing less eggs because of not getting what they need?? All food is not created equal in terms of proper nutrients during critical time periods…..

This idea that food just isnt playing a factor in anything just doesn’t make any sense at all to me……It would make more sense to believe that maybe we just arent connecting the dots.

Wouldn’t the abundance of insect life impact the growth rate of the poults? I remember walking out in my test field some mornings and being kinda in awe by how much stuff was buzzing and flying and crawling…..I remember thinking….”Damn a turkey wouldn’t even have to try to catch food in all of this”………How efficient is a young poult at catching food during the first few weeks and months during that critical time period when its needing to add weight?.....Isnt it a lot about "probability" and opportunity??.... Maybe having places like my test field where they don’t have to try makes a difference….not just food plots but on a stand level

There's going to be another layer of this ^^^^^^ onion as well.....The more the poults have to move around the more susceptible they will be to predation....Also I’m guessing there’s a certain size that poults reach where predation rates drop way off…….If it takes 10 weeks to reach that size instead of 8 weeks…..then that's increasing the amount of time they're susceptible as well......higher food/insect density = less time and space = less predation

I think that idea is legit. If soil health is having anything to do with it, it seems to me that it would be through better habitat for poults.

I am not certain, and neither is anyone else. It's just that it happens, and happens everywhere they are successfully restocked.

My theory is that this cycle is primarily due to the way the predators learn to catch poults and break up nests. It's unsustainable for the hens to have such great nesting success for a long period of time. It's not that they starve; the predators learn to deal with them.

CNC
Research why Colbert and Lauderdale turkey seasons were closed back in the late 70s and 80s. Colbert was reopened much sooner than Lauderdale. Look at the season openers and changes prior to those counties closing. I don’t know where to find the documentation these days. A friend wrote a paper about that and will ask him if he still has any copies. He used data that was gathered during that time frame and prior.
When he came to work at Thomas wildlife the season opener was April 8 and ran for 3 weeks. He moved here in the late 80s

Why did the turkey population decline back then. The use of fire wasn’t even on the radar.

I’d venture preacher is closer to the answer than your scorched earth theory. I’ve not seen anything around here that looks like your pics.

There’s no scorched earth theory……There’s simply the statement of fact that SOM% matters and most folks don’t know if they’re impacting it or not…..much less whether they have it maximized. “Habitat” begins 12-18 inches below ground.

Taking the chart a step further......

When y’all want to compare what we’re doing now versus what occurred a long time ago…….this ^^^^^ is one place where you run into a big difference in the variables at play……We used to have herding “grass managers” roaming the landscape. They took a lot of the grass fuel and converted it into organic fertilizer which made soil life boom, lessened fire intensity, impacted specie composition, impacted stand structure, stimulated the seed bank with hooves, etc……Not having the herding grazer on the landscape to help manage this carbon cycle changes the dynamic a good bit and lessens your overall potential. That portion of the "grass" they're turning into fertilizer just gets burned.

According to that video I just watched, all the American chestnut trees dying probably started the decline in turkeys. Changed the soil. SOM went down. SOM awareness went down. Soil changes made a difference in CNCs charts. Also all those trees dying caused a change in the climate with the carbon dioxide levels changing. Causing a rainy day some 50 something years ago. On that rainy day, since he couldn’t work, a certain man stayed home with his wife. We all know what happens on rainy days. Chucky was conceived, 50 something years later we lose 10 days of turkey season. All thanks to the American Chestnut dying out, dominant gobblers, soil SOM… it’s all connected. Blame it on the Chinese chestnut for starting the decline.

Keep preaching CNC… one day the light will come on for these guys.

This lack of there being a herding grazer involved anymore is something that makes me a little suspect of our use of fire over time…….This herding animal that was on the landscape was helping to build the soil as it moved around…..It was spurring on the fertility and production…..Without it you’re handicapped and building soil over time becomes a more difficult task with fire as your only tool. Over years and decades it would be really easy to go another smidge backwards and another smidge backwards without there being that other tool to help it go forwards…..

Lets just say you went in one year and maybe burned with the soil too dry and it got way hotter than you meant for it to and you really burned down into the organic soil across an entire stand …..the soil habitat that supports the soil food web above got zapped…..Without the poopers to come around “inoculating” and fertilizing, it could take a while to build that back…..especially if you just come back in again 2 years later with another round of fire. That’s kinda what is happening on the property in the picture I posted….The topsoil has been degraded down to the bare bones and there’s nothing to get it out of the hole and move it forward……Without the herding grazers about the best you could try to do would be minimize fire as much as you could tolerate to build up some surface OM……Continuing to hit it every two years at this point is just burning up any chance you got of covering the soil…..

My point being that with fire alone it would be a lot easier to go backwards than forwards over time. Again, that doesn’t mean that I believe everyone has created a scorched Earth scenario…..but I do believe its true that very few are aware of whether they have or haven’t had an impact...Its very naïve just to make the assumption that it doesn’t matter and everything is all good. I assure you that it matters…Whether everything is “all good” can only be determined by folks taking some measurements

The biggest point I’m trying to get y’all to recognize is that you are 100% for sure…..without a doubt…. take it to the bank…..promise it to your mama…… on this SOM% spectrum somewhere in every stand……I showed a picture of the extreme end so that the concept would be recognized……Most stands are not going to be on the extreme end though……You may just be on the low or very average end…….and you don’t know if you are or if you aint…..or seem to even care to find out…….All the while your greatest asset to overall potential is possibly being lost……You may be sitting there at 1.7% OM across your place and you don’t even know…..I can go ahead and assure you that your food plots are most likely that low.......

I know I got my test field to 6% and it was still growing and getting deeper and it changed the whole dynamic of everything with that field……just completely different growing conditions….. different plant communities……insect communities….their adundance…… What if you took the SOM on stand levels to 6% or greater instead just a food plot?? ……That is the true top of the mountain for productivity. I don’t really think you cant achieve it without grazers though

If stands are being impacted then you’re most likely going to see it having greater negatives effects in upland areas and deep sands due to the impact its having on soil moisture …..Lack of SOM is just compounding issues in situations that are already naturally dry…..Areas like Enon and the old Midway Plantation would be prime places to look for such happening as that area is built on top of a sand pit and gets a lot of fire……

I think you are over estimating the importance of food plots in relation to turkeys. I won't say they are meaningless, but I don't think they have a lot to do with turkey numbers or health. What's far more important is the rest of the habitat. I haven't found anything as effective as fire in keeping a pine stand decent turkey habitat. Leave it out, and it's easy for the understory to become sweetgum saplings, and that isn't good for turkeys of any age.

I don't doubt for a second that we would have a lot more turkeys if we restored the great longleaf forest and covered it up with bison, but I don't see those things happening.

Fire and traps is the answer!