Let me reiterate that I said they burned as needed. If they had achieved what they ante they slowed the timeframe down. Why burn it if it’s not needed. The only sections I’ve seen them burn every year is road frontage in a very wet bottom and rarely does it burn thru. They strip it till tired and move on. Doubt much is accomplished except maybe some nesting bugging habitat. Do see ones in that area every spring and summer.

No kidding. That’s my agenda is to understand what the heck happened. Ducks fall into that category too. Two things have occurs amongst ducks and turkeys. Hunter participation has increased tenfold. Habits have changed and maybe not for the better. What I’m seeing is hunters are not happy except those with the deepest of pockets. Duck hunting has just about gotten unaffordable for the average Joe. The places in Arkansas that consistently do very well pour a crap ton of money into their properties.
It has become a status symbol and that’s the last thing I’d want, of course if I win the lottery that may change.

I know the majority of it is habitat based but still there are areas that shouldn’t support turkeys but they appear to be doing well.
The most quail I’ve seen are on a Robert Trent Jones golf course. Not a managed property for quail.

“Food density” is driven at a base level by soil and the soil food web……

I think its making a big assumption to think that we’re managing fire and the understory in the same manner as what has happened in the past……especially considering we no longer have herds of grazing animals roaming these stands….

Even still though, whether we are or whether we aint……I’d still think that its important for a “land manager” to understand the difference in 2% SOM and 6% SOM and how much of their potential that’s impacting instead of just saying “Well none of that is even worth knowing and paying attention to…..We’ll just assume that its good”

Never said it wasn’t worth paying attention to, but I seriously doubt the percent of SOM has anything to do with turkey absence, presence, or nest success.

SOM comprehension goes up, deer and turkey thrive, corn is banned, cell cameras disappear, deer bubbles pop (or don’t pop… I’m still not sure if the bubbles were good or bad), gas goes down, trump is president again, and the office gets back on tv for at least 3 more seasons.

It’s all about the soil.

Don’t forget about the cows…… or the buffalos…..or maybe we just high fence the whole 9000 acres and introduce some exotic grazers.

Carbon is the first link in the chain…..its what drives the soil food web…..which produces all the soil critters the turkeys like to scratch for….worms, grubs, snails, crickets, grasshoppers, etc..etc……..The amount of carbon in the soil dictates the amount of life in the soil. It also dictates which plants will grow and which wont…..As you move from 1% organic matter in the soil to 6% organic matter the species composition changes……You pick up a lot more diversity and get more beneficial seed producers and flowering pollinators which draw in more insects…..All this turkey food that is being produced is being driven by carbon at the base level…….

They got to make it out of the egg before any of this is relevant.

I think you are making the assumption that food quality is a limiting factor for turkey populations, and I seriously doubt that it is true in Alabama. It is for deer, and you can tell by the body weights and other things that deer are a lot healthier in some parts of the state vs others, and I think there is validity to your soil ideas when talking about deer.

I don't think it limits turkeys at all. I have killed big, healthy, 20+ pound gobblers on some of the worst soil in the state on the old Coosa wma. I've killed others on some of the best soils in the Blackbelt that looked exactly the same. I don't think poor quality food plots will affect the health of turkeys. If they aren't happy, they will just go somewhere else.

This originally got started by cartervj talking about the large private landowner and saying that they had an extensive predator removal program…..to which I said, if you remove predators as being a limiting factor to population growth then the next thing in line that will eventually limit how many turkeys are on a particular property is food……I think that is true…….Take out predators and let the population multiply and at some point you will reach a point where food limits population density…….I’m not just making this stuff up about soil…..If you were on the old QDMA forum then you saw dgallow teaching about it for years.

PCP…..it isnt saying that the turkeys are going to starve to death…..its saying that cartervj’s private landowner can take out the predators and produce as many turkeys as he wants to but at the end of the day he’s only going to hold the amount he can feed. The excess will go futher and do other.

What dictates the amount of food being produced?.....At the very most basic level the chain begins with soil carbon.

I understand what you are saying and I think it's absolutely right for deer. I just don't think it is for turkeys. I've never seen a place where I thought turkeys had exceeded the carrying capacity of the land. It might be possible, but I've never seen it. I've seen places have a whole lot of turkeys, but they still had plenty to eat. I think the social structure of turkeys keep it from ever happening. They will just spread out further if they start to get too concentrated, even when they have lots of food.

This is just my experience and not based on research, so I could be wrong. But I don't think the quality of your plots will ever have much to do with their survival. Don't get me wrong - having plenty of food will help keep them on your property, but it doesn't have much to do with their survival. About the only way that can happen is you can hold them on your land so that they don't go somewhere else and get killed. I like to see them spend the winter on my place so that they don't get shot by deer hunters who don't mind breaking the law, but the effect of that is pretty minimal.

I'm not knocking your theories on soil; I just don't think it applies to turkeys. They can survive most anywhere in AL that they aren't overly pressured by people.

What PCP said^^^^^^^^^^^X100.

So after thinking about it, I propose an imaginary study.

Take my 400 acres and put a high fence around it; not a deer high fence, but a turkey one. How high would it need to be to keep them in? Let's say 300'. Also put in a cross fence to divide into 2 parcels as exactly alike as possible. Then put in the turkeys.

The most I've ever seen has been a few winter groups of around 50 birds. That's not normal, but let's use 50 for the study. Put 10 in one side and 40 in the other. Recapture them after a year and weigh them. My prediction - no difference at all in the weights of the 2 groups. No way do I average having 50 on the place, but I think they would live just fine.

Next year put 10 in the control side and 100 in the other. Would results be different? I doubt it, even with 100. There is some number where weights would go down, but I don't know what it would be. It would require a whole lot of them, and it would be a number that would never occur naturally.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my thinking. I'm going fishing; a good day to all!

"I think the social structure of turkeys keep it from ever happening. They will just spread out further if they start to get too concentrated, even when they have lots of food." --Quoted from PCP.

That is a simple, yet profound statement.

And Pwyse's reference to The Office earlier, lol. Y'all keep it entertaining. And I am learning from all the Biologists on here. I am not being sarcastic either. Really, there is a good bit to learn about land and wildlife. I appreciate the input.

I’m guessing that “food” for turkeys is a complex ordeal….They eat a lot of different stuff and probably have time periods where they seek out certain things to meet certain needs…..I’m guessing that spring and summer revolve highly around bugs and insects as a main staple…..My thoughts are that they are going to spread out and cover larger areas seeking out specific food sources at specific time periods. Why is it they move to different areas in the winter?? Isnt that about food?? Better areas to scratch for food found in the soil maybe?? Once I turned my test field around to very fertile black soil that was full of diverse plants and tons of insect life, I had a hen show up and start nesting right in the middle of it…..Now that very well could have just been coincidence but I don’t think it was…..I think she was seeking out that ideal spot because of the structure and the food productivity.

I wish I had more picture of this property because it represented the extreme bad end of this soil health spectrum…..It was pretty much bare of any topsoil across the majority…..About the only thing you had growing was a little bit of sparse grass…..However, you could look around and spots where vegetation had gotten a foothold and formed a little bit of decayed OM over the soil you had more diverse plant growth…..It was easy to see the impact SOM was having on plant growth. This land probably had 1% SOM across most stands if that........Soil is not completely fixed…..the base component is but the top soil is not…..we manage it and it matters. I’ll say this again regardless of any of this……It isnt that hard to monitor your SOM levels…..just an afternoon walk around your property with a shovel and your eyes can tell you a lot …..But if you sample the stands across your property and you’re only running 1-2% organic matter on average then you’re selling your potential way short.

Back to the way this relates to the question cartervj presented though about the 9,000 acre property that has an extensive predator program and has still seen decreases…….Why?......My guess is that its food related ……What else would be the logical next option?

I’m betting if they manage for turkeys and deer they have plenty of food. It’s probably got to do with a couple of bad hatches or something. Things like that are cyclical and they happen. I bet soon they have a couple of good hatches and they are booming again.

The property I posted the picture of is being managed for deer and turkeys too…..Just because someone is running fire through it every couple of years doesn’t mean they’re paying any attention to the topsoil…….Like I said before, ask most folks how their past management has impacted the SOM levels and they’ll likely not know what you’re talking about much less have an answer…..despite it being one of the most important variables being managed. If you want to truly maximize the lands output then you would start with maximizing the soil’s potential. You would have a goal of maximizing the SOM levels and the soil life……Once you understand that then its easy to see why you want a herding grazer involved.