With all this that has been said we're back to square one and Its all on us to improve our hunting lands and increase our herds and flocks regardless of what the state does
Nobody is going to do the job for us and nobody is going to pay us to do it
The satisfaction we will get is when we see our property thriving with the animals we love to hunt so stop whining and NUT up and get the job done

So nothing about the landowner I mentioned?

Why did his turkey population decline? He's been managing for turkeys since the late 80s, it’s his favorite animal to hunt and he’s hunted around the world.
He was somewhat excited that it seems the turkey population is rebounding, especially the hens being seen now.

Increase in raptors, increase in coons, increase in coyotes…..Depending on how they’ve used fire and managed the soil, possible decrease in plant and insect diversity/abundance

They’ve been under guidance by a knowledgeable biologist for years. They’ll do growing season burns once poults are big enough but for the most part after deer season and well before turkey season. Sapling hardwoods have been controlled due to growing season burns and or herbicide as needed
Predators, let’s just say the have had an intense management plan.

I could be way wrong but feeding and disease is what I personally think. I know we’ve turned several turkeys from Jerry’s property years ago that appeared to have blackhead or something similar but test came back inconclusive due to specimen decomp.

What burn interval?......2 year?.....What kind of soil is it generally speaking?

As needed. A study was released a few years back where it was made mention in southern states the rotation needs to be more on 2 yr than 3 yr rotation

Hell they prescribed burn managers too
Some intervals every year until saplings are under control and the. 2-3 depending on habitat either early successional or understory.

Heck man I’m friends with several bios and have over 35k acres in burn experience myself working for a good friend that’s a retired bio. Matt knows him
I’m not gonna mention the landowner and have said more than I should’ve. He’s a friend to a good friend of mine so we speak at times.

Fire return interval should technically be based off of the fertility of the soil and the speed of the plant response….I think most folks look at soil as a fixed variable (which its not) and don’t consider the impacts they are having with their above ground management……That top 6-12 inches or so of organic soil is a main driver of it all in terms of understory plant and insect diversity/abundance….. The difference in 6% and 2% is huge if you're running a deficit long term

If you look at how most people are managing food plots these days they typically burn up all of the organic matter and then in order to have success they rely on rainfall to be just right. The ground doesn’t soak up and hold soil moisture the same so plant production suffers……..your drought years are more prominent and you get a much better plant response in years when rainfall is in abundance…..Take out the organic matter from the soil and you take out a lot of your buffer. You create bigger fluctuation.

Its no different when you mess with the OM% on a big scale….We just had 2 of the wettest years on record a couple years ago and now people are reporting more turkeys…..Maybe the rain supported higher plant productivity…….more food/cover……Like wow, look how great my food plots look when everything lines up just right to make up for my mismanagement.

Not saying this is for sure your problem but its something that is completely overlooked by many. It makes a difference with the outcome you see…..especially when we start talking about soil types that are just naturally poor to begin with. Burning too often…… or maybe too hot…… or too much in the dormant season……..or maybe when KBDI levels are too high…….there’s ways that “just burning” could be having negative impacts when played out over 5….10….15…20 years in the same stands if its slowly impacting and decreasing the OM%.

Once again, our DCNR spends money on everything except for the wildlife.

That’s the problem and why everyone talks past each other here

What you’re seeing versus others. Turkeys are not nocturnal so visual evidence does exist either in person or camera surveys.

I see more turkeys in town than at the farm yet I’ve been told over and over turkeys hate people. These birds like traffic I think. Occasionally folks pull over and call to them while taking videos and pics. Literally strutting on the shoulder mere feet from the traffic. From the singing river bridge over to second street in muscle shoals. At the intersection of woodmont and 72 in Tuscumbia in the fields. To the west a few miles just past the CoOp several more flocks doing great. Down hwy 43 from 72 intersection behind my friends house he hears them gobbling all the time. Even during deer season LOL. I’m sure those are gobbled out by the season opening.

Here’s the anecdotal for me. I’ve driven the same stretch of the trace, 9 miles thru what was once great turkey habitat. I’d see the similar numbers I mentioned previously. It’s a rare day to see a few if any at all these days. Idk 🤷‍♂️

Here’s the kicker, I’ve been driving that stretch for over 20 years. A mix of hardwoods and bottomland field in row crop and hayfields.
Habitat did change thru some of that area with heavy timber harvest occurring simultaneously. The replanted pines been burned several times now so it’s getting back but the hardwood drains were left be.

Dude you think too much

After the burns they look for response, primarily forbs are what they’re wanting. If they don’t get that response I’m sure they change their burn schedule. Since they manage timber stands for habitat they have mixed stands and open canopies interspersed where they can. They have early successional that is burned during growing season to get those forbs growing and killing saplings.

You simply glossed over where I mentioned they’ve had a biologist looking over everything plus they kinda know what they’re doing. Have very deep pockets to get anyone they need to look and answer questions. lol.

The landowner lives for turkeys, deer are a secondary concern and they’re strictly managed. This guy hunts and fishes year around. If they’re not off on any hunt they’re down there working on habitat.

Look at seasons and when changes occurred

Southern zone, 2005-2007 March 20 opener moved to March 15. Why? Data or hunter sentiment?
Northern zone, a few years later April 1 to weekend before April 1. And hy? Data or hunter sentiment?

I mention the March 20 versus 15 deal because if you use the original March 20 date then the new March 25 date is only 5 days and not 10 which is substantial. I assume that’s why the March 15 is being clung to, well that and that’s been the opener for some sampling’s as they’ve been turkey hunting.

Colbert and Lauderdale many many years ago open earlier and seasons were closed. Colbert for around 10 years and Lauderdale
For 25 years.

When Colbert reopened it was April 8 til end of April. Early 90s
Moved to April 1.

I don’t doubt the restocking boom, explains a lot where I hunted.

I get y’all that have a stable or increasing numbers, I’d be doing exactly what yall are saying.

......and yet you're on here telling us they cant figure out why the turkey population has declined......

Cartervj……..I’ll make you a deal…..Ask them how their management practices have impacted SOM (soil organic matter) levels over the years and if you get any answer other than a hazed over look with “I don’t know”….I’ll buy you lunch next time you’re in the Auburn area.

They haven’t sterilized their soils so to speak.

Does any one have an idea why the population is down across the entire southeast. It was that a big ole lie? Why so much more in areas while other areas not so much. Is it all simply management practices or lack there of?

There likely isnt one single smoking gun……Instead its likely numerous factors that are driving overall lower turkey populations across the board…….Some areas are being impacted more than others…..some maybe not at all……As you move around the landscape the limiting factors for population growth likely changes……There’s just not this one boogey man out there that the Scooby Doo gang is going to unmask like everyone is searching for.....There also probably isnt a real "crisis" going on like its getting labeled as.

As far as the large private property you're talking about.......If we take away predators then I would think that food density should take over as the limiting factor.

CNC, I seriously doubt the large growing season fires that shaped the southeast forest hundreds of years ago checked the soil’s organic matter before burning over hundreds of thousands of acres. And they burned with frequent occurrence. Records indicate numbers of quail and turkeys we can’t comprehend nowadays.

We had numbers when i was a kid that can't be comprehended now. We also had every old timer killing hawks and owls, trapping was worth money and was also alot of coon hunting back then. You never found roadkill back then because it was worth money!