I've recently been listening to some stuff from Craig Harper and his approach is pretty interesting. This is obviously a huge oversimplification but I'm intrigued.

"Greenfields" - He basically recommends an "old field" approach where you maybe cut it 1x per year or even less, and spot kill unwanted species with herbicide. Target 4-5ft tall cover with a lot of forbs. Potentially mow a strip out in the middle of it that you can only see from ground level via an elevated stand. Put a corn feeder out in the middle of it if you want to see a bunch of deer. Big focus on creating some structure to the field in order to create some level of cover along with additional food.

"Forest Management" - Leave mostly mast producing trees (Oak, Beech, Pecan, maybe Hickory, Fruit Trees) and then kill, hinge, or stump everything else.

Does anyone use an approach like this? Seems relatively lower maintenance.

Anecdotally - we had some greenfields at our old lease that were (mostly) plain grass with some clover and other things we'd planted over the years mixed in, though it was low effort planting and none of it really took off. Deer would stop by there but it wasn't really a "destination" location. My dad liked "playing farmer" and would brush hog the fields about once a month. The last year we had the lease, he got a bit sick, and it was barely brush hogged. We saw more deer in it that year than in other years where it was consistently cut.

Deer love to pick and choose if you ever get to watch them in the daylight when they are relaxed. Little of this, little of that. They got all the time in the world.

Dr Harper calls it recreational mowing. Likely the worst “habitat” treatment you can apply. Park the bush hog.

ANYONE have some of his books?

I have his Food Plot and Early Successional habitat book, which is out of print. Supposed to be an updated version released this year and it's worth every penny, just for the tables in the appendices if nothing else. I also have some of his publications in printed pdf's on old field management, NWSG etc.

There's nothing wrong with a disk or a bushhog.....Its the knowledge of knowing how and when to use them. I've grown great greenfields for years with nothing but a spreader and mower

Meh, sounds like he has no idea as how to bring deer in.

This cracked me up. I told my dad the term - he laughed and said "yep mowing fields is a lot of fun".

Yea I'm going to order the revised... it's ~$100 but seems like a great resource. Evidently the thing is 500 pages...

My dad is getting into his 80s, and I don't live anywhere near our hunting land, so he handles more of the maintenance. It seems like reshaping the forest a bit, mowing fields 1x per year, spot treating undesirable plants (I can handle), and hiring someone to do a burn periodically is a lower maintenance approach than mowing greenfields and planting.

what i belive hes talking baout is what i would love to do on our club. Safe haven and food for the deer so hopefully i can increase the number of deer i see and harvest..

What’s the difference between mowing a field vs bushog? I have been told multiple occasions lately to not bushhog but people talk about mowing etc? I figured they were one and the same?

im guessing the level of which you cut the fields? mowing you dont cut it all the way down versus what you would with a bush hog...

Same.

Buy him a hatchet and a spray bottle for herbicide. Remove the driveshaft from the bush hog and take it with you.

I'd say they're very similar in this case.

Bush hogging is cutting anything from larger brush to basically mowing grass, but you're using a tractor
Mowing is generally just grass, but you could be using either a mower or a bush hog

At least that's the context I've always understood it.

Yep - it seems interesting. Basically creating a something like a food rich bedding area that you can hunt from an elevated position. Theoretically deer should feel safer moving in it though I'm sure you still need to hunt the wind etc.

bingo!

If you are going to do that, why even bother having a green field at all, just let the whole place grow up.

I would rather have a green field that I knew the soil PH was good, and that I could plant specific species of forage in it. There is a reason deer mow down soybeans. And why they grow big giant bucks in the heart of american farmland.

I have a field that may be 2 acres at most.. I do plant it and it stays eat down. But it is in the center (dead in the middle) of about 80 acres. Surrounding the field is volunteer pine/gums/brush/briar thickets, I’d say 40 acres. Outside of the thickets are old growth hardwood, oaks and such, about 40 acres. I can see as many as 20 deer on camera there at times… get pics all throughout the day…if I ever feed anything they will be there before the wheeler gets good and gone of the field..

A deers world is 4 ft and down. Mast trees are great, and savannah type habitats are excellent. Biggest issue is keeping it a savannah.

One of the biggest factors is timing from what I understand. Bushhogging during the summer consistently promotes the growth of non-native turf grasses which are not beneficial to deer. However, in the winter months it can be a useful tool to help set back woody growth in old field habitat etc.

I've heard him speak , he's a hardwood wildlife management guru. I heard him say " y'all ever see a deer eat a pine cone?"

I have raised livestock all my life and have watched them for over 60 years as they go about their daily routine. Their #1 requirement is safety almost year round. I have several different hayfields and I love watching deer use them. I have a 30-acre field that has small pockets of hardwoods in it. I let this place grow up 4 years ago and it was like a deer paradise when the weeds and saplings got over head high. Deer used this like a Wal-Mart on Black Friday. When I bush-hogged it all down and cleaned it up for hay production, the deer moved off me into the 3-year-old cutover bordering my South border. They stayed in the cutover all day and would use the hayfield early and late to browse all the different grasses that were growing on it.

The next year I took my disc and planted a green field that was 150 yards long along the border of the cutover. Deer wear it out! They also will leave the plot and feed on the fescue and other grasses growing in the hayfield. They nibble here for 30 seconds, raise their heads and look around, nibble another 30 seconds, raise their head, and look around again-repeat. They gradually work their way around to the hardwoods and browse on water oak, red oak, and white oak mast from the small pockets of hardwoods. They dont stay one place too long and they get a variety of browse as they go about their feeding routines.

Long story short, I can see no difference by using a bush hog and keeping the tracts from growing up. I leave a 10' strip between the hayfields and the food plot so my neighbors can't look out the back door and see deer in the plot. When they walk through this buffer they are wide open. I am just glad that "most" of my neighbors don't shoot them. These deer do the exact same thing cattle will do at the house. I am old school and will have to keep bush-hogging until I pass! I have no idea how many deer I have killed in my life, but this works for me.

Deer may be feeding in the hayfields but I bet they’re not feeding on the fescue. More than likely it’s small forbs like Carolina geranium, dandelions etc

We drill ryegrass in ours and I can’t keep em out of it…

Completely understand. A lot of deer get killed in pastures overseeded with ryegrass and crimson clover. Heck I got a couple of plots I'm glad I have volunteer ryegrass in this year, because the rest are pitiful. I hear a lot of people stating deer feed on fescue, bahia etc and I just don't see it. Especially if it's a "dirty" pasture that's not sprayed.

Deer grazing on grass in the winter months vs on grass the rest of the year are two completely different things. This is why deer abandon winter food plots (depending on what is planted) when spring green up occurs in the woods. Grass is not a preferred forage but deer will do what they need to survive in the winter when food options are limited

I’ve heard or read somewhere that a deer can starve to death with a belly full of Bermuda grass. They just can’t digest it effectively.

This may be true or close to the truth. I know grasses like rye grass provide very little nutritional value to deer

It ain’t the soybeans. It’s the soil fertility. The reason stuff is bigger in the Midwest is soil.

What Craig focuses on is not new information. Heck I’ve been doing this for years. Craig just has the info out there available. He’s a great guy and very good habitat manager. Focusing on early successional habitat and understory management does WAY more than any supplemental planting ever will. Start with quality habitat. Food plots are only a secondary priority.

I’d say its both…..The soil fertility is why there’s a bunch of soybeans there……which is high quality forage in mass amounts. Its not just the soil…..Its the great soil’s potential forage output

Right, but it all falls back on the productivity of the soil. The reason ppl grow crops there is because of soil fertility. I’ve seen just just as high of quality of deer in areas of the Midwest with no agriculture where they’re eating native vegetation. Healthy fertile soil allows them to reach their full biological potential.

good stuff guys keep that info coming!

Soil fertility don’t mean crap without the genetics of the animals to take advantage of it.

The studies show that there is no difference in the nutrient content of an individual plant grown in high quality soil versus low quality soil…..The difference is the high quality soil’s ability to produce more of an abundance of the better plant species. Chitloads of soybeans for them to eat makes a difference......especially when its being consumed by multiple generations over the course of decades

MSU studies concluded there’s no difference in genetic potential between populations. Only difference is soil fertility. Fed the same diet they have the same genetic potential.

Yes generational nutrition is key.

So if Key deer were on the same soil fertility landscape that they would have the same rack size that mid West deer do? I highly doubt it.

At this point I’m certain there’s a line in which the generational differences in soil fertility have influenced genetics, not just in their expression only, but also in their potential. They are two distinct subspecies of deer adapted to entirely different environments. The populations in MS have drastically different average body weights and antler scores, until provided the same nutrition over 3 or more generations. At that point they were not statistically different. I’m not here to argue. Just stating what has been shown.

The way that I think many people are perceiving the issue is as if the Midwest has a higher level of soil nutrients that are just being channeled through any and every plant that the deer consume and which plants it may be doesn’t really matter……I don’t think that’s the case though…….The difference is occurring because the better soil is able to support a higher order of plant species in greater abundance…..Its growing more plant species that have higher nutritional values and in greater numbers.

Also, something that really should be recognized is that “soil fertility” isnt something that’s just fixed or static. There’s a portion of it in the base soil type that is fixed……but then there’s the other half of soil fertility that’s in how we manage the organic matter portion of the equation…..That impacts plant specie composition just as much as the base….if not more…….Decrease the OM% in the soil and you decrease your fertility and your “potential”……especially in poorer soils…..For example, when I improved the soil fertility of my test field over time, it went from growing crabgrass and spurge nettle to growing species like teaweed…which has a nutritional profile nearly equal to soybeans. Have the land produce mass amounts of plant species like teaweed or soybeans over the course of generations and you grow big deer.

f a deer breeder was wanting to grow the biggest bucks, would he buy inferior genetic semen or semen from a buck that had better genetics. Considering cost is not an issue and the feed was the same.

SO feed the chit out of them at highest capacity of nutrients increases size and mass correct?

It's not what they ate, it's what their momma AND her momma ate.

This has nothing to do with deer breeders. You’re talking two different things N2turkeys. I’m talking wild deer.

But while it was brought up, I’ve seen exactly what can be produced in enclosures of nothing but native deer, given birthdays and nutrition. It’s dang unbelievable. AL is limited by less fertile soils and lack of deer age structure, not genetics. All you can influence in the wild is habitat quality and age. Don’t know why ppl get so hung up on genetics. A pen full of superior genetic freaks is of ZERO interest to me. To each their own. Even in the wild in areas with superb habitat the 200” freaks are still not common.

yeah im confused and dont mind saying so. So genetics not into play your saying high impact nutrients, letem grow in years for optimal results?

Basically yes. But it will be the 3rd generation offspring before the impacts truly start to show.

It’s not two different things, because it’s both dealing with genetics. You can’t fight genetics. The MSU study proves that. Although, Mendel had already proven that years ago. Nutrition can cause increases is body and antler size, but it doesn’t turn a deer from Mobile County into a mid West deer if they don’t have the genetics for it.

Your parents could have fed you only the most nutritional foods your whole life, but you were never destined to grow into a 7 footer and play in the NBA.

Another note on Craig Harper and hardwood deer management . I heard him say fertilizing oaks does not make them increase acorn production or make them "sweeter". He said all it'll do is make the tree grow and it takes a lot of fertilizer to move that needle. $ and time is better spent somewhere else.

Feel lucky to have Mbrock and CNC showing up in this thread!

MBrock and others - Any resources you recommend on this method? I plan on getting Dr. Harper's book when it goes back in print but like to utilize multiple resources. I'm thinking that I'd prefer early successional habitat managed with fire, selective spraying, and the occasional bush hogging to traditional greenfields. I don't particularly enjoy sitting greenfields, but I love hunting thickets, and it seems like this would be kind of similar.


MBrock - you probably don't remember this but years ago you pointed me towards some hogs in Bankhead... we ended up 2 miles deep and made it out in the dark. Heck of a hunt! Almost killed a few very very deep and were happy we didn't because we would have never gotten them out!

CNC - we utilized throw and mow on our old lease - worked pretty darn well! We lost that lease though which is why I'm exploring new approaches. Our new land has no greenfields... I own it so could get it timbered and use the money to improve the habitat etc. but with timber prices back down, not sure how much I'll even get. Working on coming up with a complete plan.

You need to listen to MSU’s podcasts about the intensive genetic management tests that were conducted in Texas (UT Kingsville?) and you’ll forget all about genetics and cull bucks when you think about managing deer.

Lol. I’ve listened to their podcasts. You can’t get around genetics, as bad as you may want to.

I agree I’m fortunate to hunt a big private piece of land

It has a genetic make up of tall and narrow buck antlers

Very little pressure and less than one buck killed per thousand acres for the last 30 years

We kill a 140 plus about every 5 years with pretty good hunters

We do see multiple racked bucks on most sits on fields and we kill several mature bucks every
year but a 140 inch deer isn’t common

This is a diverse piece of ground with multiple stages of habitat

About 6000 acres

I will say that the buck doe ratio is real close to 1 to 1 and the rut is strong

I’m kinda sold on the genetics thing also. On our place we have 2 types of deer. We have taller, longer deer and shorter not so long deer. Pretty good difference in the weight of the mature bucks also. Our neighbor thinks the larger deer have the genetics from the river bottom deer that was brought in from Clark County years ago. I also heard y’all of the genetics of deer from Michigan or somewhere up north in Nothern Alabama. I may be wrong about genetics but I know about the 2 different sizes of deer on our place.

The state was mostly stocked with deer from in house or the sub species for the region. However, a handful of areas got deer from a different sub species. Northern at that. What happens to those sub species? Do they not hold potential genetics that would surpass the local deer genetics? In other words, if you did the MSU study with deer of different sub species, do they still end up same weight and antler size given the same nutrition? Bankhead is interesting for sure.

Call Matt and have him do a site plan for you. It'll pay off.

May do that. Need to learn about it a bit more and sell my father on the idea. He spends the most time out there, and in his own words "I have a lot of fun bush hogging" haha...

We don't even have the cabin habitable and he's sending me old tractors for sale and tractor auctions!

Teach him how to do hack and squirt and use a drip torch, just as much fun and a lot more productive. Dormant season strip disking would be better than bush hogging and just as therapeutic.

please dumb this stuff down for me please. hack and squirt?

Hack and squirt is a method for removing, over time, unwanted trees and scrub through the judicious use of certain herbicides. The idea is to make a series of cuts, hacks, on the trunk of target plants and squirting a little herbicide/oil mixture into said cuts. The tree dies standing. I’m using it to eradicate sweetgum in a couple areas of my property.

thanks

Yep. A good hatchet and a spray bottle. Google Craig Harper TSI mix for a good herbicide cocktail.

All I’ve done is bushhog and put out feeders for several years now. Mostly just ryegrass and some clover still comes up, but we’ve killed as good or better deer. Certainly haven’t seen a negative impact by not planting. I use to do all that before legal baiting, but always thought it was overkill. Plenty of food for a deer around us year around.

There’s a difference between old field management and letting it all “grow up” lol.
That difference is managing for invasive and native species. If you let everything grow up without any disturbance, you’re just gonna be slam full of invasives. ( Privet, sericea lespedeza, exotic turf grasses or cool season grasses (basically hay). Disturbance stimulates the seed bank and and will produce a mix of native and invasives. Treat the invasives and promote the natives and do so within timber and open areas. You create a base foundation of native habitat (browse/forbs) which is about 70% of your herds diet. Then food plots and feeding becomes surplus feed which is the other 30% of herd diet. Then just let your 3.5yr olds walk and harvest does according to ratio and in a couple years you can kill mature bucks IF you have a decent hunt strategy and setup accordingly.

It isn't going to work because you aren't in a controlled environment.

I am pretty sure that anyone who throws out some blanket statement saying mowing is a waste of time.... is dumb as a ballsack. Another dumbass with another dumbass theory on Deer management.

I have about come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a cull deer. When you have a chance to watch a deer grow and see how it progresses, its pretty amazing. From what I have observed on my lease, which I started on in 2018, improving the nutritional quality in food plots goes a long way. I have some very nice younger bucks on camera, that would be shooter bucks in any hunting club short of a well managed one, and we never used to see very many. I used to see 1 or 2 rack bucks a year. This year I have seen 9.

There are factors that could influence that, like curtting members, but I think it has a lot to do with feeding them year round. When I watch how the deer respond to a whitetail clover plot, spending hours a day feeding in them, and I know its on limed and fertilized ground, I know that is the best nutrition on my lease they can consume.

Clover has been the backbone of that program, but the last 2 summers are forcing me to adjust some.

I can't do the habitat management Mbrock and a couple others talk about, so, this is the main thing I can manage. Even if a deer only eats in one of my plots 1 time a day, that is 1 time a day that deer is eating the best forage on the property. That moves the needle based upon what I have seen over the last 6 years.

You took that pretty personal. In mower sales or something?

He's the extension wildlife specialist at University of Tennessee and a professor whose primary field is soils and management practice impacts on deer along with wildlife food plots with an emphasis on deer forage plots.... in other words, the guy is a PhD whose research specializes in feeding deer and managing deer herds.

His statement was more nuanced than that and was basically that many many people mow too much. Calls it "recreational mowing". He's actually good with foodplots - thinks they should be mowed less. For example he thinks clover plots should mostly be treated with grass selective herbicide and mowed 1x/year. Most non-planted fields he thinks should be burned every 1-3 years or maaaaybe mowed 1x/year. That's in contrast to what are basically cut hay fields or fescue plots many people in Alabama hunt over.

Same could be said for plowing and disking.......