The way that I think many people are perceiving the issue is as if the Midwest has a higher level of soil nutrients that are just being channeled through any and every plant that the deer consume and which plants it may be doesn’t really matter……I don’t think that’s the case though…….The difference is occurring because the better soil is able to support a higher order of plant species in greater abundance…..Its growing more plant species that have higher nutritional values and in greater numbers.

Also, something that really should be recognized is that “soil fertility” isnt something that’s just fixed or static. There’s a portion of it in the base soil type that is fixed……but then there’s the other half of soil fertility that’s in how we manage the organic matter portion of the equation…..That impacts plant specie composition just as much as the base….if not more…….Decrease the OM% in the soil and you decrease your fertility and your “potential”……especially in poorer soils…..For example, when I improved the soil fertility of my test field over time, it went from growing crabgrass and spurge nettle to growing species like teaweed…which has a nutritional profile nearly equal to soybeans. Have the land produce mass amounts of plant species like teaweed or soybeans over the course of generations and you grow big deer.

f a deer breeder was wanting to grow the biggest bucks, would he buy inferior genetic semen or semen from a buck that had better genetics. Considering cost is not an issue and the feed was the same.

SO feed the chit out of them at highest capacity of nutrients increases size and mass correct?

It's not what they ate, it's what their momma AND her momma ate.

This has nothing to do with deer breeders. You’re talking two different things N2turkeys. I’m talking wild deer.

But while it was brought up, I’ve seen exactly what can be produced in enclosures of nothing but native deer, given birthdays and nutrition. It’s dang unbelievable. AL is limited by less fertile soils and lack of deer age structure, not genetics. All you can influence in the wild is habitat quality and age. Don’t know why ppl get so hung up on genetics. A pen full of superior genetic freaks is of ZERO interest to me. To each their own. Even in the wild in areas with superb habitat the 200” freaks are still not common.

yeah im confused and dont mind saying so. So genetics not into play your saying high impact nutrients, letem grow in years for optimal results?

Basically yes. But it will be the 3rd generation offspring before the impacts truly start to show.

It’s not two different things, because it’s both dealing with genetics. You can’t fight genetics. The MSU study proves that. Although, Mendel had already proven that years ago. Nutrition can cause increases is body and antler size, but it doesn’t turn a deer from Mobile County into a mid West deer if they don’t have the genetics for it.

Your parents could have fed you only the most nutritional foods your whole life, but you were never destined to grow into a 7 footer and play in the NBA.

Another note on Craig Harper and hardwood deer management . I heard him say fertilizing oaks does not make them increase acorn production or make them "sweeter". He said all it'll do is make the tree grow and it takes a lot of fertilizer to move that needle. $ and time is better spent somewhere else.

Feel lucky to have Mbrock and CNC showing up in this thread!

MBrock and others - Any resources you recommend on this method? I plan on getting Dr. Harper's book when it goes back in print but like to utilize multiple resources. I'm thinking that I'd prefer early successional habitat managed with fire, selective spraying, and the occasional bush hogging to traditional greenfields. I don't particularly enjoy sitting greenfields, but I love hunting thickets, and it seems like this would be kind of similar.


MBrock - you probably don't remember this but years ago you pointed me towards some hogs in Bankhead... we ended up 2 miles deep and made it out in the dark. Heck of a hunt! Almost killed a few very very deep and were happy we didn't because we would have never gotten them out!

CNC - we utilized throw and mow on our old lease - worked pretty darn well! We lost that lease though which is why I'm exploring new approaches. Our new land has no greenfields... I own it so could get it timbered and use the money to improve the habitat etc. but with timber prices back down, not sure how much I'll even get. Working on coming up with a complete plan.

You need to listen to MSU’s podcasts about the intensive genetic management tests that were conducted in Texas (UT Kingsville?) and you’ll forget all about genetics and cull bucks when you think about managing deer.

Lol. I’ve listened to their podcasts. You can’t get around genetics, as bad as you may want to.

I agree I’m fortunate to hunt a big private piece of land

It has a genetic make up of tall and narrow buck antlers

Very little pressure and less than one buck killed per thousand acres for the last 30 years

We kill a 140 plus about every 5 years with pretty good hunters

We do see multiple racked bucks on most sits on fields and we kill several mature bucks every
year but a 140 inch deer isn’t common

This is a diverse piece of ground with multiple stages of habitat

About 6000 acres

I will say that the buck doe ratio is real close to 1 to 1 and the rut is strong

I’m kinda sold on the genetics thing also. On our place we have 2 types of deer. We have taller, longer deer and shorter not so long deer. Pretty good difference in the weight of the mature bucks also. Our neighbor thinks the larger deer have the genetics from the river bottom deer that was brought in from Clark County years ago. I also heard y’all of the genetics of deer from Michigan or somewhere up north in Nothern Alabama. I may be wrong about genetics but I know about the 2 different sizes of deer on our place.

The state was mostly stocked with deer from in house or the sub species for the region. However, a handful of areas got deer from a different sub species. Northern at that. What happens to those sub species? Do they not hold potential genetics that would surpass the local deer genetics? In other words, if you did the MSU study with deer of different sub species, do they still end up same weight and antler size given the same nutrition? Bankhead is interesting for sure.

Call Matt and have him do a site plan for you. It'll pay off.

May do that. Need to learn about it a bit more and sell my father on the idea. He spends the most time out there, and in his own words "I have a lot of fun bush hogging" haha...

We don't even have the cabin habitable and he's sending me old tractors for sale and tractor auctions!

Teach him how to do hack and squirt and use a drip torch, just as much fun and a lot more productive. Dormant season strip disking would be better than bush hogging and just as therapeutic.

please dumb this stuff down for me please. hack and squirt?

Hack and squirt is a method for removing, over time, unwanted trees and scrub through the judicious use of certain herbicides. The idea is to make a series of cuts, hacks, on the trunk of target plants and squirting a little herbicide/oil mixture into said cuts. The tree dies standing. I’m using it to eradicate sweetgum in a couple areas of my property.