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14 registered members (dave260rem!, AU338MAG, BCLC, IDOT, square, bull4, jawbone, woodduck, Gobble4me757, Forrestgump1, Frogeye, 3 invisible),
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Pwyse]
#3810419
12/12/22 05:12 PM
12/12/22 05:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,182 B'ham
Goatkiller
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,182
B'ham
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So biologists in other states that believe a 1:1 ratio is better than 2:1 or 4:1 or whatever. Why do they say the same thing? Is it also to generate tax money for the state they are in? Or is it a different reason?
It think this question is actually the opposite. Nobody else allows their "hunters" to blast everything they see. My opinion is the quality of the deer in neighboring States is much better than AL. So the question in my mind is why we do what we do? Why?....Because nobody else manages their herds in the same manner. So we are the outlier. It's 100% the other way around. Mississippi - 8 deer limit per season. 3 buck limit. Georgia - 12 total - 2 bucks 1 must be more than 4pt. The only other place they allow unfettered doe blasting is Middle TN and guess what... IMO it's on the decline. I've hunted in TN my whole life. Nowhere near as good as it was in Middle TN before they unleashed the doe killers. Also - we now have a bunch of poaching problems we have never had to deal with before. They appear to want to become just like Alabama and are on the fast track. I know quite a few people that shoot 10+ deer per season in Alabama easily. There are a bunch right here on this board. If you want a better buck/doe ratio stop killing them. Mother Nature will do that for you. Deer herds do not naturally have a 4:1 ratio. That's gunfire that did that.
No government employees were harmed in the making of this mess.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Pwyse]
#3810424
12/12/22 05:18 PM
12/12/22 05:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 8,534 Chelsea
Lockjaw
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 8,534
Chelsea
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As far as claiming that Alabama has peaked in "capacity" with respect to deer numbers...... that's funny. There are areas around the State with very LOW numbers. For example... most public land. Our public land hunting is near horrible but it appears to me the States has said screw you guys who don't have a big 1,000+ acre lease. Rules for Me NOT for Thee. The entire State's management plan is not really a management plan at all IMO it is what big landowner's want. I'll get to the reason why in a minute.
I will tell you where Deer numbers have peaked... my neighborhood. They are eating the flowers by the neighbor's front porch. Appears we've got some pretty nice bucks in that mix too I have seen at least one 140 inch deer close to my house in Birmingham.
Amazing what happens when there is low hunting pressure or maybe none at all. Looks like Alabama has the potential for a LOT better racks IMO. That's my observation. But on the flip side...drive 20 miles in any direction and you might hunt all season and never lay eyes on a 120 inch deer.
Who doesn't want higher deer numbers and bigger antlers. Anyone? Tell me again how if you shoot up all the deer you'll have more deer and bigger antlers? 20+ years later still trying to sell that BS huh? Show me how well it has worked somewhere then. And then show me Statewide... It's a disaster.
What we are not discussing here is VERY simple.... we've got hunters all across the State. Nearly every available stich of property is hunted. We've got large groups coming in here from out-of-state. LA and FL are big draws.... They are spending money at every gas station, feed store and Mom and Pop watering hole in Rural Alabama for 3 months out of the year... which is all about the economy. $14 Billion per year according to the Outdoor Industry Association.
And there is your answer..... Blasting does = $14 Billion for the State of Alabama.
IMO what we have done is take the absolute most lazy approach possible to managing our deer herd... and decided like most things in AL State Government , that this approach nets the most $$$'s in Revenue for the State with the least amount of work or effort.
And there you have it.
It's simple to justify you get study done by some academic personality like Dr. Deer and you sell it too the majority. "The Science" (say it like Dr. Fauci).... all just BS and all the deer blasting is 100% nothing but politics. So biologists in other states that believe a 1:1 ratio is better than 2:1 or 4:1 or whatever. Why do they say the same thing? Is it also to generate tax money for the state they are in? Or is it a different reason? Why did nearly all the docs get on board with the COVID vax?
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Pwyse]
#3810448
12/12/22 05:48 PM
12/12/22 05:48 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,230 Semmes, AL
HippieKiller
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,230
Semmes, AL
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Option 2… not sure how that would work since birth ratios are virtually 1:1. Unless you are talking about other bucks coming to your property that aren’t born there. I know this happens but I would think it happens with both sexes. Coming and going. So if the ratio is 3:1 and we quit killing deer, wouldn’t it be 3:1 each year after that? Or am I missing something? I am sure I am just not catching on to what you are saying. Year 1: 48 deer , 40 doe + 8 buck (5:1 ratio) Let’s say each buck knocks up 3 does (24 of the 40) and 50% have twins. That adds 36 more deer to the herd (18 does, 18 bucks) Year 2: 84 deer, 58 doe + 26 buck (down to 2.2:1 ratio) At this ratio, all the does could be bred, and let’s assume 50% twins again. That adds another 87 deer to the herd (44 doe, 43 buck). Year 3: 171 deer, 102 doe + 69 buck (down to 1.5:1 ratio) It’s simple math. The higher the numbers go, the closer the ratios get and get there quickly, assuming you can keep everything alive.
Last edited by HippieKiller; 12/12/22 06:02 PM.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Mbrock]
#3810503
12/12/22 06:35 PM
12/12/22 06:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,146 North AL
AU338MAG
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 18,146
North AL
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Hippie, each buck breeding 3 does is a fantasy. It don’t happen.
Buck mortality is WAY higher than y’all are assuming in your math. Even on properties where hunting related mortality is zero. Truth. Hunters have this misguided belief that a few dominant bucks are screwing all of the does. They find a hot doe, stick with her 2-3 days and mate several times. The buck has fend off any other bucks that may try to take her. This is why in properties with an imbalanced herd the rut is drawn out over multiple estrous cycles.
Dying ain't much of a living boy...Josey Wales
Molon Labe
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Backwards cowboy]
#3810623
12/12/22 08:37 PM
12/12/22 08:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,538 Mobile, AL
Pwyse
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,538
Mobile, AL
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If the buck to doe ratio is that off, there would be no fighting off other bucks for a doe. Everyone wants to shoot every deer they see and still have a bunch a deer. They know it won't work, so they try to justify it with this nonsense. You can get the deer ratio how ever you want it by shooting deer, this will never mean more or better deer population. It amazing to me how people will say all day long how messed up the government is and then rely on them to make decisions for them. If you want more deer or better deer quit shooting them. Believe me, wherever you live your neighbors will take care of any over population problems you will have. What the heck does the government have to do with any of this?
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3810632
12/12/22 08:43 PM
12/12/22 08:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,648 Montgomery, AL
Forrestgump1
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,648
Montgomery, AL
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I hunted some of the finest properties in Alabama during the 2000’s when doe killing became a big thing. In about a 5 year span watched those properties go from 20 plus a sit to include racked bucks to being lucky to see two or three. Several years later, and it took years, we reduced the overall harvest drastically, to allow the population to bounce back. During the low number years, body weights did not increase nor did antler size despite the option of way more available food. Rut was not any better, you were lucky to even see deer. Fast forward to now, you will see 10 plus deer a sit and multiple age classes of bucks. Management is not a one size fits all ordeal, but in my part of the state I’ve never seen a herd too large that the habitat could not support. I think naturally there are more does than bucks.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Forrestgump1]
#3810770
12/12/22 10:04 PM
12/12/22 10:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,930 Elmore County
Frankie
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,930
Elmore County
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We did what was recommended by the biologist that came out. 2,800 acres with 12 members. We were told we needed to kill about 50 does a year. We did just that for about 3 years. Neighbors to the north are at about 2,000 acres and to the west is about 1,500 acres. Black belt swamp bottoms. They also played into the doe thinning. It was tough for a while and took longer to start bouncing back vs reducing it. The tell all for me was to see no increase in body weights or antler quality. And I bet the rut didn't get any better defined either .
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Frankie]
#3810805
12/12/22 10:29 PM
12/12/22 10:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,648 Montgomery, AL
Forrestgump1
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,648
Montgomery, AL
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We did what was recommended by the biologist that came out. 2,800 acres with 12 members. We were told we needed to kill about 50 does a year. We did just that for about 3 years. Neighbors to the north are at about 2,000 acres and to the west is about 1,500 acres. Black belt swamp bottoms. They also played into the doe thinning. It was tough for a while and took longer to start bouncing back vs reducing it. The tell all for me was to see no increase in body weights or antler quality. And I bet the rut didn't get any better defined either . Nope, hell, after the fourth year we were scratching to see deer on a field that use to fill up with them.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Mbrock]
#3810807
12/12/22 10:30 PM
12/12/22 10:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,230 Semmes, AL
HippieKiller
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,230
Semmes, AL
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Hippie, each buck breeding 3 does is a fantasy. It don’t happen.
Buck mortality is WAY higher than y’all are assuming in your math. Even on properties where hunting related mortality is zero. I understand that, just trying to show how the math works for ratio purposes in a perfect world.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: AU338MAG]
#3810817
12/12/22 10:41 PM
12/12/22 10:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,206 South Alabama
gobbler
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,206
South Alabama
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This thread may be as stupid as the game camera thread... Or the spring burning post
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Pwyse]
#3810888
12/13/22 04:44 AM
12/13/22 04:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,102 Xroads
Backwards cowboy
6 point
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6 point
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,102
Xroads
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If the buck to doe ratio is that off, there would be no fighting off other bucks for a doe. Everyone wants to shoot every deer they see and still have a bunch a deer. They know it won't work, so they try to justify it with this nonsense. You can get the deer ratio how ever you want it by shooting deer, this will never mean more or better deer population. It amazing to me how people will say all day long how messed up the government is and then rely on them to make decisions for them. If you want more deer or better deer quit shooting them. Believe me, wherever you live your neighbors will take care of any over population problems you will have. What the heck does the government have to do with any of this? Who do you think sets the seasons and limits, your aunt? And most people think it's OK to shoot what the limit or season is. That's why deer population over state is down. And FYI it's not for herd management it's for insurance companies.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Backwards cowboy]
#3810898
12/13/22 05:54 AM
12/13/22 05:54 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,930 Elmore County
Frankie
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 15,930
Elmore County
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If the buck to doe ratio is that off, there would be no fighting off other bucks for a doe. Everyone wants to shoot every deer they see and still have a bunch a deer. They know it won't work, so they try to justify it with this nonsense. You can get the deer ratio how ever you want it by shooting deer, this will never mean more or better deer population. It amazing to me how people will say all day long how messed up the government is and then rely on them to make decisions for them. If you want more deer or better deer quit shooting them. Believe me, wherever you live your neighbors will take care of any over population problems you will have. What the heck does the government have to do with any of this? Who do you think sets the seasons and limits, your aunt? And most people think it's OK to shoot what the limit or season is. That's why deer population over state is down. And FYI it's not for herd management it's for insurance companies. Sure it is , that why we have , deer check . Lol
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: gobbler]
#3811074
12/13/22 10:26 AM
12/13/22 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,873 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,873
Awbarn, AL
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This thread may be as stupid as the game camera thread... Or the spring burning post Welcome back Goobler!!.....Good to see you posting again.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Semo]
#3811173
12/13/22 01:02 PM
12/13/22 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,873 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,873
Awbarn, AL
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CNC, I'll try one more time. Since CWD has become more prevalent deer movement studies have garnered an increase in interest. GPS and camera tech has helped a ton. There are great articles available that document buck and doe dispersal patterns. Instead of shooting from the hip you could access these documents.
Google scholar is your friend. I’m genuinely curious here in asking but which studies is it you’re wanting me to find???……..I'm confused.....Are you saying I'm incorrect or are you saying I should use them to back up my hypothesis??........Because everything I’m reading backs up the things I’m saying nearly verbatim…….For example, it describes doe herd expansion existing on an outward expansion of home ranges like the petals of a rose……That’s exactly what I’m picturing with the road mortality……There arent many does growing old occupying that outside petal that loops across the highways and interstates….. that outside petal eventually gets clipped……and much quicker than you would think....it doesnt take years for sure and they don't form doe "groups" doing that either
Last edited by CNC; 12/13/22 01:04 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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