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Cerakote vs Dipping
#3660111
04/27/22 09:45 PM
04/27/22 09:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 771 Shoal Creek
Bowhunter2011
OP
4 point
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OP
4 point
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 771
Shoal Creek
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Y’all ever had a gun done in either of these or a combo of both?? If so, which do you like better and what do you recommend? I’m looking at having my rifle done by a guy in Arkansas called Rob Roberts.
Last edited by Bowhunter2011; 04/27/22 09:46 PM.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660164
04/27/22 10:49 PM
04/27/22 10:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15,347 Ourtown, AL
BCLC
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15,347
Ourtown, AL
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I’ve had terrible luck with dips and wraps. Cerakote for me 100%. The only downside of cerakote compared to dips is less patterns to choose from. Gundoc is who I use. I’ve had him do pistols, an AR, and a couple bolt actions. They’ve all held up well.
We’re not dead. We just smell that way. Dayum. - AC870
Yessir! I’m always gonna shoot what makes me happy and I want everyone else to do the same! If you shoot one be proud of it and don’t worry what anyone else thinks. - SJ22
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: 3% outdoorsman]
#3660184
04/28/22 04:33 AM
04/28/22 04:33 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,438 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,438
Boxes Cove
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Skip the dip.not durable and an old fad Yep.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660203
04/28/22 06:38 AM
04/28/22 06:38 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,363 On the X
TickaTicka
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 6,363
On the X
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I've heard good things about Rob Roberts.
There's a right way and a wrong way to dip guns. Most do it the wrong way. I am good buddies with a guy who owned a dipping business for a bit. He is duck hunter, so knew what gun abuse was and prepped his guns for dip meticulously. I have two shotguns he dipped well over a decade ago and they look like the day I picked them up. Said he barely made any money.
Public Land Owner
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660213
04/28/22 06:49 AM
04/28/22 06:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,462 Mississippi
riflenut
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,462
Mississippi
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I've got no experience with dipping but have several cerakoted rifles, highly recommend. Gundoc has done a couple for me and will do my work in the future.
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
"I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers." George Mason
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660256
04/28/22 07:51 AM
04/28/22 07:51 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
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If wanting a camo pattern, I much prefer dipping and have been very pleased with it on my turkey guns. If wanting a solid coating, cerakote is what I would do and Gundoc is who would do it.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660266
04/28/22 08:02 AM
04/28/22 08:02 AM
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,025 Alabama
Shaneomac2
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,025
Alabama
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NEVER heard any complaints about gundoc at all..
Georgia Football..Acts like Bama but has a trophy case like South Carolina.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660357
04/28/22 09:17 AM
04/28/22 09:17 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,147 Central Alabama
Cuz-Pat
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,147
Central Alabama
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Cerakote and dipping should never be used in the same sentence.
Cerakote is far more durable.
For around here, there is none more better than Gundoc.
Look no further.
Cuz-Pat
Patton's European Mounts Professional Quality Skull & Antler Taxidermy Since 1998
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660399
04/28/22 10:12 AM
04/28/22 10:12 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,087 Northport, AL
GomerPyle
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
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Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,087
Northport, AL
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I had my turkey gun dipped last year. In less than one full season, it's in rough shape. The guy that did mine assured me it would hold up better than a factory camo finish but that has not even remotely been the case. The clear coat started peeling in multiple places after literally the first hunt and the camo is completely worn off now in multiple places, and the first turkey season with it post-dip isn't even over. I don't know if this particular guy just did a crappy job or if that's the norm for any aftermarket dip, but I've been really unimpressed.
At some point, I'll probably have it stripped and cerakoted, especially now that more and more people can cerakote a specific pattern.
There are 3 certainties in an uncertain world:
1. All Politicians Are Liars 2. All Gun Laws Are an Infringement 3. Taxation Is Theft
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660403
04/28/22 10:20 AM
04/28/22 10:20 AM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,589 Central, Al
Bustinbeards
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10,589
Central, Al
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You can get it dipped and cerakoted clear over the dip. There is a company Rykan industries doing bottomland cerakote.
Originally Posted By: Wiley Coyote Well, the way I see it is there's just too many assholes On a good day there's a bunch of assholes in here. On a bad day there's too many assholes in here.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: GomerPyle]
#3660417
04/28/22 10:30 AM
04/28/22 10:30 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
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I had my turkey gun dipped last year. In less than one full season, it's in rough shape. The guy that did mine assured me it would hold up better than a factory camo finish but that has not even remotely been the case. The clear coat started peeling in multiple places after literally the first hunt and the camo is completely worn off now in multiple places, and the first turkey season with it post-dip isn't even over. I don't know if this particular guy just did a crappy job or if that's the norm for any aftermarket dip, but I've been really unimpressed.
At some point, I'll probably have it stripped and cerakoted, especially now that more and more people can cerakote a specific pattern.
You use the guy on Flatwoods Road?
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660419
04/28/22 10:32 AM
04/28/22 10:32 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
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I use Jay’s Hydrographics in Bessemer, AL. He does a clear cerakote over my dipped guns.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660427
04/28/22 10:36 AM
04/28/22 10:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 10,981 Earth
TDog93
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 10,981
Earth
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Anybody close to Thomasville that can carakote? Where is gundoc at?
Hunt the wind - leave it better than you found it - love your neighbor as you love your self We need prayer for our country now more than ever
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#3660442
04/28/22 10:53 AM
04/28/22 10:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,087 Northport, AL
GomerPyle
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
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Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,087
Northport, AL
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I had my turkey gun dipped last year. In less than one full season, it's in rough shape. The guy that did mine assured me it would hold up better than a factory camo finish but that has not even remotely been the case. The clear coat started peeling in multiple places after literally the first hunt and the camo is completely worn off now in multiple places, and the first turkey season with it post-dip isn't even over. I don't know if this particular guy just did a crappy job or if that's the norm for any aftermarket dip, but I've been really unimpressed.
At some point, I'll probably have it stripped and cerakoted, especially now that more and more people can cerakote a specific pattern.
You use the guy on Flatwoods Road? Yep...first and last time. It was a case of he was a little bit cheaper than most others (but not "suspiciously" so) and had a quicker turn-around time. Lesson learned.
Last edited by GomerPyle; 04/28/22 10:59 AM.
There are 3 certainties in an uncertain world:
1. All Politicians Are Liars 2. All Gun Laws Are an Infringement 3. Taxation Is Theft
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: GomerPyle]
#3660481
04/28/22 11:41 AM
04/28/22 11:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588 Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
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I had my turkey gun dipped last year. In less than one full season, it's in rough shape. The guy that did mine assured me it would hold up better than a factory camo finish but that has not even remotely been the case. The clear coat started peeling in multiple places after literally the first hunt and the camo is completely worn off now in multiple places, and the first turkey season with it post-dip isn't even over. I don't know if this particular guy just did a crappy job or if that's the norm for any aftermarket dip, but I've been really unimpressed.
At some point, I'll probably have it stripped and cerakoted, especially now that more and more people can cerakote a specific pattern.
You use the guy on Flatwoods Road? Yep...first and last time. It was a case of he was a little bit cheaper than most others (but not "suspiciously" so) and had a quicker turn-around time. Lesson learned. Yep, I’ve been less than impressed with his work.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3660587
04/28/22 02:40 PM
04/28/22 02:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847 AL
Gobble4me757
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847
AL
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I currently am trying to decide what to do. I think I will dip my stock and forarm and cerakote the barrel/action. I called Jay's and probably will go with them. I also called Iron Works in Tennessee and really liked them as well. Both I've heard fantastic stuff about.
2017 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion 2018 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#3661046
04/29/22 09:53 AM
04/29/22 09:53 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,087 Northport, AL
GomerPyle
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
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Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,087
Northport, AL
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You use the guy on Flatwoods Road? Yep...first and last time. It was a case of he was a little bit cheaper than most others (but not "suspiciously" so) and had a quicker turn-around time. Lesson learned. Yep, I’ve been less than impressed with his work. This is after basically 1 season of hunting....most of the wear is on the forearm, and it actually started showing after 2 mornings in the woods. In a couple of spots it has worn all the way down to the original black plastic and you can see the "clear coat" pealing in multiple places. I'm not too concerned with it for now, but eventually I'll get it redone and either cerakote it bottomland or have someone dip it then do a clear cerakote over the top.
Last edited by GomerPyle; 04/29/22 09:54 AM.
There are 3 certainties in an uncertain world:
1. All Politicians Are Liars 2. All Gun Laws Are an Infringement 3. Taxation Is Theft
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3661384
04/29/22 08:58 PM
04/29/22 08:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,777 Marshall County
ALMODUX
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,777
Marshall County
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I need gun doc to pm me his contact again, so I can send him some stuff before next season. There is a guy in Lacey Springs near Huntsville, (Arsenal Engraving and Coating) that cerakoted a new A5 for me. I’ve been extremely impressed, though it’s only been one season. However, my duck guns get thrown around in mud boats and pirogues full of Louisiana muck, and banged around all over freshwater and saltwater marsh. Still looks pristine. I needed a fairly quick turnaround, and gun doc is a drive for me. I really like the colors/pattern on this one, and may end up with several more done very close in colors and/or pattern. Metal is midnight bronze. Stocks are a mix of colors and his free hand pattern. Tungsten would work, too.
Last edited by ALMODUX; 04/29/22 09:05 PM.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3661402
04/29/22 09:38 PM
04/29/22 09:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,928 Woodstock
3% outdoorsman
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,928
Woodstock
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Luckily I have a beadblaster at work.good excuse to tinker with guns .it's fun degreasing guns and painting them then baking.lol https://i.imgur.com/kgZHDNV.jpg kg gunkote I soaked a piece of metal in sweets 7.62 solvent and could not make it come off.would take blasting it again or a good bit of abrasion to remove
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Gobble4me757]
#3661456
04/29/22 10:34 PM
04/29/22 10:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,224 Central Al
twaldrop4
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,224
Central Al
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I currently am trying to decide what to do. I think I will dip my stock and forarm and cerakote the barrel/action. I called Jay's and probably will go with them. I also called Iron Works in Tennessee and really liked them as well. Both I've heard fantastic stuff about. Look up Inverness outdoors in Pelham/Hoover. He’s got one of mine does a good job, he’s easy to deal with and cheaper than jays
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: twaldrop4]
#3661521
04/30/22 06:52 AM
04/30/22 06:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,715 Birmingham
wew3006
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,715
Birmingham
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I currently am trying to decide what to do. I think I will dip my stock and forarm and cerakote the barrel/action. I called Jay's and probably will go with them. I also called Iron Works in Tennessee and really liked them as well. Both I've heard fantastic stuff about. Look up Inverness outdoors in Pelham/Hoover. He’s got one of mine does a good job, he’s easy to deal with and cheaper than jays Austin, at Inverness Outdoors, did some nice work for me, as well.
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: twaldrop4]
#3662529
05/01/22 06:32 PM
05/01/22 06:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847 AL
Gobble4me757
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847
AL
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I currently am trying to decide what to do. I think I will dip my stock and forarm and cerakote the barrel/action. I called Jay's and probably will go with them. I also called Iron Works in Tennessee and really liked them as well. Both I've heard fantastic stuff about. Look up Inverness outdoors in Pelham/Hoover. He’s got one of mine does a good job, he’s easy to deal with and cheaper than jays Will be calling tomorrow. Do they do the distressed cerakote?
2017 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion 2018 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3662652
05/01/22 08:57 PM
05/01/22 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 10,981 Earth
TDog93
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 10,981
Earth
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I gone try something different - about to wrap my SBE2 black w mossyoak infinity gun wrap
Hunt the wind - leave it better than you found it - love your neighbor as you love your self We need prayer for our country now more than ever
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: ALMODUX]
#3662736
05/01/22 10:49 PM
05/01/22 10:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,928 Woodstock
3% outdoorsman
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,928
Woodstock
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FYI, there’s not a wrap made that I would trust to not let moisture work underneath and start some problems. Krylon is better. Yep krylon can be touched up also.wraps are for company vehicles not guns guns.lol
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3662988
05/02/22 12:12 PM
05/02/22 12:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847 AL
Gobble4me757
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847
AL
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Talked to Austin sat Inverness…they charge $300 for full gun. I’ll be taking it to them today or tomorrow…appreciate the heads up about them.
2017 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion 2018 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: ALMODUX]
#3663027
05/02/22 01:29 PM
05/02/22 01:29 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,928 Opelika
olemossy
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,928
Opelika
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I need gun doc to pm me his contact again, so I can send him some stuff before next season. There is a guy in Lacey Springs near Huntsville, (Arsenal Engraving and Coating) that cerakoted a new A5 for me. I’ve been extremely impressed, though it’s only been one season. However, my duck guns get thrown around in mud boats and pirogues full of Louisiana muck, and banged around all over freshwater and saltwater marsh. Still looks pristine. I needed a fairly quick turnaround, and gun doc is a drive for me. I really like the colors/pattern on this one, and may end up with several more done very close in colors and/or pattern. Metal is midnight bronze. Stocks are a mix of colors and his free hand pattern. Tungsten would work, too. Wow!! Thats awesome
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Gobble4me757]
#3663114
05/02/22 04:29 PM
05/02/22 04:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,145 In front of my lathe
gundoc
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,145
In front of my lathe
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Talked to Austin sat Inverness…they charge $300 for full gun. I’ll be taking it to them today or tomorrow…appreciate the heads up about them. Metal and stocks?
There are two types of gun enthusiasts ... Those who have been F#CKED by PTG and those who will be!
~ unknown
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: gundoc]
#3663123
05/02/22 04:44 PM
05/02/22 04:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847 AL
Gobble4me757
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847
AL
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Talked to Austin sat Inverness…they charge $300 for full gun. I’ll be taking it to them today or tomorrow…appreciate the heads up about them. Metal and stocks? Yeah for both. Pretty solid price comparatively. I would go with you if I were just cerakote but the combo deal plus them being close to the house is hard to beat. Sorry to hijack thread as I’ve been battling the decision for cerakote Vs dip as well.
2017 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion 2018 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Gobble4me757]
#3663240
05/02/22 07:25 PM
05/02/22 07:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,145 In front of my lathe
gundoc
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,145
In front of my lathe
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Talked to Austin sat Inverness…they charge $300 for full gun. I’ll be taking it to them today or tomorrow…appreciate the heads up about them. Metal and stocks? Yeah for both. Pretty solid price comparatively. I would go with you if I were just cerakote but the combo deal plus them being close to the house is hard to beat. Sorry to hijack thread as I’ve been battling the decision for cerakote Vs dip as well. Are they cerakoting the furniture or doing some other finish?
There are two types of gun enthusiasts ... Those who have been F#CKED by PTG and those who will be!
~ unknown
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: gundoc]
#3663322
05/02/22 08:29 PM
05/02/22 08:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847 AL
Gobble4me757
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847
AL
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Talked to Austin sat Inverness…they charge $300 for full gun. I’ll be taking it to them today or tomorrow…appreciate the heads up about them. Metal and stocks? Yeah for both. Pretty solid price comparatively. I would go with you if I were just cerakote but the combo deal plus them being close to the house is hard to beat. Sorry to hijack thread as I’ve been battling the decision for cerakote Vs dip as well. Are they cerakoting the furniture or doing some other finish? Getting old school camo there just the metal they are doing the cerakote on.
2017 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion 2018 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3663644
05/03/22 09:47 AM
05/03/22 09:47 AM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,113 miss'ippi state
donia
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,113
miss'ippi state
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ANOTHER OPTIONJust to give another option, if you don't mind shipping it. Birdsong T-Coat. Look under the FORMS header for price list.
experience is a freakin' awesome teacher....
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3666342
05/07/22 09:41 AM
05/07/22 09:41 AM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,145 In front of my lathe
gundoc
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,145
In front of my lathe
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... Ended up the stock has a glued custom limb saver like butt stock for shoulder protector and they couldn’t cerakote the stock.. That's intersting. I've done a number of stocks with glued on recoil pads with no problem. I just tape the pad off - as I'm sure they have to do to dip it as well. Not trying to be argumentative just don't understand the problem
There are two types of gun enthusiasts ... Those who have been F#CKED by PTG and those who will be!
~ unknown
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3668111
05/10/22 11:42 AM
05/10/22 11:42 AM
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847 AL
Gobble4me757
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,847
AL
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Just dropped mine off with austin at Inverness outdoors…liked them a lot over there. I’ll post a pic when it is all said and done!
2017 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion 2018 Team Aldeer Turkey Contest Champion
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: Bowhunter2011]
#3697026
06/25/22 08:40 AM
06/25/22 08:40 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,781 Huntsville
JUGHEAD
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 11,781
Huntsville
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I wish I knew what separated hack job dippers from legit ones. I had my little 20 gauge 870 turkey gun dipped by Baker Hydrographics about 10 years ago. I don’t think you could get that finish off with a grinder. God only knows how much abuse that gun had had and it still looks fantastic. Every job I have had done by other folks has been sheer garbage.
"The only reason I shoot a 3.5" shell for turkeys is because they don't make a 4" one." - t123winters
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Re: Cerakote vs Dipping
[Re: JUGHEAD]
#3697488
06/26/22 12:02 AM
06/26/22 12:02 AM
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,928 Woodstock
3% outdoorsman
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,928
Woodstock
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I wish I knew what separated hack job dippers from legit ones. I had my little 20 gauge 870 turkey gun dipped by Baker Hydrographics about 10 years ago. I don’t think you could get that finish off with a grinder. God only knows how much abuse that gun had had and it still looks fantastic. Every job I have had done by other folks has been sheer garbage. Lol nothing separates them but once you learn to clean wad and powder fouling from your shotgun to get best pattern for ethical kills and you eat the finish off your gun cleaning it properly with solvents you'll know why dipping sux . And yes cleaning shotguns makes a big difference in patterns.i found out when I started turkey hunting and realized cleaning shotguns was important almost as a rifled gun if you want your gear to be good as possible
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