|
Velvet
by swamp_fever2002. 05/02/24 06:48 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
37 registered members (TurkeyJoe, jaredhunts, courseup, Bushmaster, 7mmSTW, G/H, Bmyers142, Young20, wareagle22, mauvilla, chevydude2015, DuckDown11, Gobble4me757, ridgestalker, coosabuckhunter, rickyh_2, Crawfish, David Ellis, RCHRR, msims767, auman, Thread Killer, BayedUp, russellb, fish251, catdoctor, bamaeyedoc, m97, YellaLineHunter, Swamp Monkey, BD, Chad Burnette, 5 invisible),
840
guests, and 0
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Logical questions about "the rut"
#3590663
01/21/22 06:13 PM
01/21/22 06:13 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,095 Anniston, AL
ikillbux
OP
ishootatbux
|
OP
ishootatbux
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,095
Anniston, AL
|
I'm guessing we all agree it's scientific fact that photoperiod determines the timing of the rut? And my assumption is that this is part of the grander design of creation so that fawns drop at the "right" time for where they live for the greatest percent of survival? Let's be honest, other than it seldom snows in Mobile, the weather is about the same from TN to FL. I mean, crap, it seldom snows in Huntsville for that matter. Removing the infrequent extremes, the whole state is pretty much the same "weather wise". In the Summer I'll leave my house in central AL and it's 95 degrees, drive to the beach for a week and it's low 90's. I've been in Mobile in December plenty of times and froze my gonads off.
So my question is: Is the photoperiod really THAT much different across the state of Alabama?? I mean, the entire states of the Midwest, literally 1/4 to 1/2 of the whole nation, has an early/mid-November rut. That indicates to me that the photoperiod is exceedingly large and unified. I'm hard pressed to believe something as atmospheric/global as the photoperiod can be that varied across something as globally insignificant as one state?? And I've always heard the narratives about stocking deer from different states, but geez that was 75 to 80 years ago. And if photoperiod triggers estrous, not genetics, wouldn't the predisposition of those original deer be so distant and diluted by now that's it's no longer a factor? Cross-breeding with native deer, and simply living in this locale for 80 generations of fawns seemingly would acclimate them to OUR photoperiod.
Is it reasonable to postulate that (sans maybe a few isolated pockets) the majority of the state does indeed begin "the rut" at the same time, BUT in places with a more out of whack sex ratio / age structure / whatever, the cycles begin in varying degrees of fervor, then each successive cycle (unbred does) get stronger and stronger, therefore certain parts of the state "see" it later (because it's suddenly so much stronger in that isolated locale)? I've just hunted all over Alabama for 30+ years, and although it's not predictable or even customary, I've seen legitimate rutting behavior in October/November/December in places that people will just get downright pissy arguing that their deer don't rut till the season goes out!! I've gone whole years before and never saw much behavior the whole season.
Your thoughts?
We were on the edge of Eternia, when the power of Greyskull began to take hold.
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: ikillbux]
#3590679
01/21/22 06:32 PM
01/21/22 06:32 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
|
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799
Awbarn, AL
|
I think the whole purpose is to coincide with spring/summer green up and the proper vegetation stages mirroring the stages of pregnancy of the mamas. It revolves around the prenatal care of the doe. If you look at spring green up for instance it can vary by a matter of several weeks or even a month or more from south Alabama to north. My parents used to live in Mentone, AL……I would talk to my mom about the flowers blooming out and such here and the same stages of growth would be weeks later at her location. Those changes in timing of the vegetation greenup and maturation is what impacts the timing of the does going into estrous IMO
Last edited by CNC; 01/21/22 06:33 PM.
We dont rent pigs
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: Joe4majors]
#3590686
01/21/22 06:43 PM
01/21/22 06:43 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
|
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799
Awbarn, AL
|
Matt Brock can set the record straight. He must be getting fitted for a new dress.......
We dont rent pigs
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: CNC]
#3590691
01/21/22 06:49 PM
01/21/22 06:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,617 Lake View, AL
Joe4majors
14 point
|
14 point
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,617
Lake View, AL
|
Matt Brock can set the record straight. He must be getting fitted for a new dress....... Weeds dictate the rut…
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: ikillbux]
#3590693
01/21/22 06:50 PM
01/21/22 06:50 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,534 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
|
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,534
Boxes Cove
|
I don't think the photo / daylight thing works in regards to the rut like you think it does. I don't think most deer from the Tenn line to the Gulf begin rut at the same time. Fetal studies don't lie. What people think they see and what actually is happening in the woods is often two different things. I do know what happens in other areas of where whitetails range is much different than what happens here. No other place like Alabama.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: ikillbux]
#3590703
01/21/22 07:02 PM
01/21/22 07:02 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,683 Marshall County
Wapiti55
8 point
|
8 point
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,683
Marshall County
|
Not natural laws stopping but a very unique genetic make up brought in unnaturally from many different areas combined with some natural and unnatural isolation. Well this was in response to a statement that has been removed now.
Last edited by Wapiti55; 01/21/22 07:03 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: Wapiti55]
#3590709
01/21/22 07:16 PM
01/21/22 07:16 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,638 Montgomery, AL
Forrestgump1
10 point
|
10 point
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,638
Montgomery, AL
|
Not natural laws stopping but a very unique genetic make up brought in unnaturally from many different areas combined with some natural and unnatural isolation. Well this was in response to a statement that has been removed now. This is pretty spot on. Photoperiod is scientifically the answer, but our deer are screwed up from years of restocking.
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: Wapiti55]
#3590765
01/21/22 08:23 PM
01/21/22 08:23 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
|
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799
Awbarn, AL
|
Not natural laws stopping but a very unique genetic make up brought in unnaturally from many different areas combined with some natural and unnatural isolation. Well this was in response to a statement that has been removed now. Sorry, I was trying not to get ahead of the conversation….I tend to do that. But yes, we have manipulated what is going on through stockings and what we have also done is manipulated the landscape in manners that change the dietary avalaibility to the doe populations…..For example, lets just say the normal dietary needs naturally require “X” amount of protein during July from “Y” group of plant species. But instead we have completely changed what is available due to agriculture. All of these man made changes and constraints hamper natural selection from taking the new stocking back to the original smooth transitions.
We dont rent pigs
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: ikillbux]
#3590768
01/21/22 08:24 PM
01/21/22 08:24 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,180 Birmingham
7x57_Mauser
8 point
|
8 point
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,180
Birmingham
|
I think photoperiod has something to do with it. But what about deer that live in close proximity to large rivers that are exposed to the same amount of daylight, but don't drop fawns until later? Did the gravid does just "know that if they dropped when everyone else did that their fawns would be washed away?" Probably not. I've heard some pretty wild lectures from neurobiologists and I really believe that there is some "memory" component to genetic, but I'm not saying that there is specific "coding" to drop in April, May, etc. I'm suggesting that the animals that did drop at the most opportune time (basic needs) were the ones that survived and bred. Hence, they were "selected for" in genetic terms. So, the deer that had a proclivity, whatever the stimulus, to breed at a certain time were the ones that continued the population. I'm not sure where I was going with this, but happy Friday!
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: ikillbux]
#3591022
01/22/22 07:02 AM
01/22/22 07:02 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,827 North Jackson
ridgestalker
14 point
|
14 point
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,827
North Jackson
|
Wouldn’t her next heat cycle be based off her conception date? If so some does get missed first time around and get bred on their next cycle 30 days later. Yearlings sometimes come in for the first time at the end of the season. From where I live according to fetal studies we have 3 different ruts within 20 miles of the house. From what I’ve seen those studies are very accurate…crazy but nice.
"The Heavens declare the glory of God;and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Pslam 19:1
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: ikillbux]
#3591146
01/22/22 09:38 AM
01/22/22 09:38 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
|
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,799
Awbarn, AL
|
Is there any studies on the annual variation in estrous timing of individual does??......If a doe comes into heat this year on Jan 24th…..will she come into heat on that same date next year? If not how much variation is occurring amongst individuals? What dates do her daughters come into heat? If natural selection is what dictates the rut timing then it doesn’t adjust things by the individual themself adjusting but rather by the outliers having some kind of advantage that gives them a higher reproductive rate that they pass on.
Last edited by CNC; 01/22/22 09:39 AM.
We dont rent pigs
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: Wapiti55]
#3591232
01/22/22 11:17 AM
01/22/22 11:17 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,661 Michigan
Sasquatch Lives
10 point
|
10 point
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,661
Michigan
|
Not natural laws stopping but a very unique genetic make up brought in unnaturally from many different areas combined with some natural and unnatural isolation. Well this was in response to a statement that has been removed now. I agree.
|
|
|
Re: Logical questions about "the rut"
[Re: Wapiti55]
#3594105
01/25/22 09:01 AM
01/25/22 09:01 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,095 Anniston, AL
ikillbux
OP
ishootatbux
|
OP
ishootatbux
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 6,095
Anniston, AL
|
Isn’t 70-80 years closer to 35-40 generations at max? Probably much less. That may seem significant to us when we only live around 80 years but it’s only a blink of the eye genetically speaking. I was assuming that does drop a fawn each year, and those fawns reach adulthood (breeding age) within the first year, so each yearly crop is a "generation". Crap, you may be right, I dunno It's plenty of time though!
We were on the edge of Eternia, when the power of Greyskull began to take hold.
|
|
|
|