They have already proven they don’t make management decisions based on facts or science. They pushed the season back last year “to be fair to weekend hunters”.

I disagree PCP.......You don't need every hunter to participate.....you just need enough to make it a valid sample size and you need about the same amount of folks to participate each year. It becomes nothing more than another sampling method that uses trends for making decisions. For example, as long as roughly 30% of hunters participate each season and that doesn't fluctuate a bunch from year to year.....then the trends are still valid. If harvest numbers remain constant over time then one can say that the population is good enough to sustain that yield

They knew from the start they would never get 100% compliance. It's just their way of insuring they get a good same size while threatening ALL hunters with fines in the process.....just like you're saying.....an enforcement tool

But there is no scientifically valid way to measure this "sampling method", as you call it. There is no way to know whether the harvest increased or whether hunters just reported better. If you are trying to measure 100% of the harvest then you need 100% participation. I will say that it measures the legal harvest, but I don't know how much that is gonna help in managing the resource if more than half the hunters have given up trying to be legal.

Because the ultimate goal of this administration is to make money. You can go back and read what Sykes wrote and said on the radio and see that he wanted to cut the limit and the season almost as soon as he took the job. His view is that a lower limit will give a higher number of hunters a chance to be successful, and that will mean more license sales. If you are really interested, look on the Big Daddy Lawler web page and find the interview he did with him and a nwtf guy 6 or 7 years ago.

True…..I bet they have some way of gauging it using historical success rates or something…..The only thing that really makes it differ from the old survey is that you’re not getting a response from folks who killed zero….I wonder how constant the traditional percentage was for the % of total hunters killing zero…..whether we’re talking deer or turkey. I don’t believe for a minute that they actually ever though they’d get 100% compliance. I’m sure they had a goal of “x” amount and then a means of using that number to extrapolate it or use the trends just like a random sampling problem. I believe that about one of the only ways they can really use the info is to look at trends to see if the yield is sustainable or declining.

first off I knew I could count on PCP to carry the load on my position on this! We don't, and I don't think we ever will, know how many turkeys we have in AL. We could, however, get some good estimates. A banding study across the state catching and banding thousands of birds would get 1) an excellent idea of what the percentage of gobblers are harvested each year and 2) after a couple years, provide some estimate of population, especially in conjunction with GC and the phone survey they do now. This should have been done years ago - cheap and easy. We don't have a statistically valid reproductive survey. There is a "observation" survey done but it is low participation and not valid. "Although it is not considered scientific data, results of the brood survey play a critical role in our assessment of turkey populations" from beards and spurs. Ive never seen the data and doubt there is any size to the sample. Many other states have done defined "routes" for years and have good data. We don't know the trajectory of the population (obviously) and, while I don't see as many as I used to and I believe we have generally fewer than 10 years ago, I don't see it as cause for alarm. Breeding Bird Survey, done for decades, say we are increasing. We don't know how, or if, gobbler harvest or timing effects poult production. I doubt there is ANY connection. We don't know how or if a later start date effects nesting and poult production, again, I doubt there is ANY relationship but I am open to the possibility. All the talk about dominant gobblers and their role in breeding and pecking order is simply speculation. Although I hear it and it sounds neat, there is NO data on this subject and any discussion of it is only one persons opinion. I have heard that the dominant gobbler does all the breeding and his removal upsets the "pecking order" and it takes time to restructure and get sub gobblers tuned up to breed. In the same presentation, I have heard the presenter say that some nests are fathered by more than one gobbler! WHAT? how is this possible, I asked! Just part of the program. That's why I say speculation - no publications on this although it would be well received by the scientific community if the data were there.

We do know predator control usually increases nest and poult production. We know good habitat management leads to increased turkey numbers. We know burning, good timber management, food plots, etc are good for turkeys. We know a lot about home ranges, habitat use, food habits, roost habitat, yearly and seasonal mortality and causes, seasonal movements, nesting and brood rearing habitat, predation, nest survival and, to some extent, poult survival.

So, if you disagree with the regulation change, flood the CAB (every member) with letters stating your opinion and send a copy to Chuck. Apparently only 2 letters were given to the CAB before this meeting and they were solicited to support the regulation changes. NO letters were sent against these changes. Make your voice known........ and use PCP's working and logic

This^^^^

They proved science didn't matter when they approved 10 extra days of deer season in the north zone for Will Ainsworth.

If the population could sustain the extra harvest that would occur without issue due to the extra ten days in Feb then there’s nothing wrong with them extending the season to offer more opportunities for hunters to get in the woods and hunt as well as keeping the overall regulations for the state as a whole more simplistic versus dicing us up more and more……”Hunter satisfaction” is a part of management too. The rut being over has nothing to do with it being sound or not as folks try to make it out….Folks like to use the phrase…”There’s no biological reason to hunt them in Feb!”…..As if there’s a “biological reason” for hunting during the rut…..or a “biological reason” for killing male deer period really….What’s the “biological reason” for that? I hate that phrase now because its just something someone said that sounded intelligent and catchy and stumped someone at the time probably so folks ran with it even if they didn’t have the first clue what they were saying.

Probably need to start a new thread for this discussion.

Good to see you weighing in, Gobbler.

No new discussion needed. I was offering evidence in support of turkey Joe's statement

It's all good....wasn't trying to single you out or anything.....that whole bilogical reason argument has always irked me

No one on here started that argument. The DNR are the ones saying they are basing their decisions on science, and then changing the starting date to be fair to weekend hunters. I just got an email from the state summarizing the meeting discussion. Looks like this season will be the last normal season we will see.

Advisory Board Tables Alabama Turkey Reg Changes Until February Meeting 0
Conservation Advisory Board will again consider proposal to reduce limit to three gobblers and start season later.
BY DAVID RAINER - ADCNR ON AUGUST 27, 2020HUNTING
The Alabama Conservation Advisory Board (CAB) approved a three-day extension of the red snapper season and tabled a motion to change the season dates and bag limit for wild turkeys at its recent meeting in Mobile.

Chris Blankenship, Commissioner of the Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources (ADCNR), recommended a three-day extension of the red snapper season, which the Board approved unanimously. The extra red snapper days are set for Oct. 10-12. The Board also voted to give the Commissioner leeway to adjust those dates should inclement weather interfere with the planned extension.

“We saw an increased participation in red snapper season,” Commissioner Blankenship said. “People couldn’t play travel ball. They weren’t going to Disney World or going on family vacations. Consequently, we saw increased participation on all weekends of the red snapper season. Because of that, we closed the season on July 3 as we were approaching the quota on red snapper. After checking the data and seeing the final landings, we have about 128,000 pounds of red snapper quota left.”

The Commissioner said the approved extension is the Saturday, Sunday and Monday of Columbus Day weekend.

The Board heard a presentation from Mike Chamberlain, the Terrell Professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at the University of Georgia, about the decline of wild turkey populations in the South. Chamberlain’s presentation was the same one given to Arkansas Game and Fish Commission, which wanted to see data on how harvest impacts the population dynamics.

“Arkansas’ turkey population has been declining for a number of years,” Chamberlain said. “The trajectory of the population in Arkansas is almost identical to the trajectory of the population in Alabama, except that Alabama is about seven or eight years behind.”


The Alabama Conservation Advisory Board tabled a motion that would change turkey season to open later and reduce the season bag limit to three gobblers.

Chamberlain, who is studying wild turkeys in numerous states from Arizona to North Carolina, said gobbling activity begins about 45 days before the peak of nesting.

“Gobblers become receptive well before the hens do,” he said. “We know two things drive gobbling activity. One is hen availability. As hens become less available, gobbling increases. The other is competition amongst themselves. If your buddy is gobbling, you gobble.

“What we see is that a lot of gobbling in March corresponds to no breeding activity. We also see that gobbling really picks up when hens start to nest.”

Chamberlain said what we’re dealing with in the South is an increased harvest of gobblers and a survival rate of hatchlings that is not high enough to sustain the population.

“What we see is a slow, gradual decline across all the states in the Southeast,” he said. “The survival rate of a clutch is 1 to 1 1/2 poults per hen. That is not sustainable. So, it makes sense that the populations have slowly declined.”

Chamberlain also said his studies indicate that about 80% of the harvest occurs before the peak of incubation.

“If you remove four toms from 2,400 acres, gobbling decreases four-fold,” he said.

Chamberlain pointed out that the reported harvest on the opening weekend of Alabama’s 2020 season was 43% higher than the harvest from 2019, a trend that held true throughout the Southeast.

“We know that early in the season, the dominant birds are the ones being shot,” he said. “So that 43% disproportionately affects the older, dominant birds.”

Chamberlain said the result of taking the dominant birds out of the population is an increase in the length of nesting activity. Instead of most of the egg-laying occurring within a few weeks, he said the hatching of the eggs is now stretched out over as much as 100 days.

“If all of these hens drop their clutches within a couple of weeks, they will hatch about the same time,” he said. “By scattering them across the landscape across 100 days, you give predators the advantage. With all the eggs hatching at one time, predators can’t possibly find all of them. If you stretch it across three months—rat snakes, raccoons, horned owls – you’re giving them an advantage.

“The science suggests the activity we’re doing is contributing to this prolonged nesting effort.”

Board Chairman Joey Dobbs asked Chamberlain if he had suggestions on how to stop the decline of the turkey population in Alabama and the Southeast.

“There are some things we can control and some things we can’t,” Chamberlain said. “This bird, uniformly across the Southeast, is dealing with habitat issues—declining quality, fragmentation, urbanization. We have diseases that are popping up that are affecting the birds. We have predator communities that are much more diverse than they were. We can’t control any of that because most turkeys live on private land.

“What we can control is what we know impacts this bird. That is harvest. We’ve known this since the mid-90s.”

After Chamberlain’s presentation, a motion was made to change the dates and bag limit for Alabama’s turkey season with a starting date of April 1 through the first Saturday in May with a season bag limit of three birds. The current regulations open the spring turkey season in most of the state on the third Saturday in March with a season bag limit of five birds.

Before the vote, Board Member Patrick Cagle offered an amendment to table that motion until the February 2021 Board meeting to ensure hunters in Alabama would not run afoul of a new regulation with the current regulation already printed in the Alabama Hunting & Fishing Digest. The Board unanimously approved the amendment to table the motion.

When asked for a recommendation on turkey season by Chairman Dobbs, Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Director Chuck Sykes said the decline in Arkansas’ turkey numbers is an ominous indication of where Alabama is headed without change.

“I would ask the Board to move the season starting date to as late as possible with a three-bird bag limit,” Sykes said. “I think Dr. Chamberlain showed that Arkansas is in a bad way right now. We’re headed in that direction. The sooner we can take proactive solutions, the better. I don’t want to kick this can down the road any farther. Thank y’all for saying you will take this up at the first meeting of 2021 and make a decision. It’s time.”

Does sound like done deal for next Feb. meeting

That’s the one thanks parrothead. Y’all dang trophy hunters killing them dominant tams have ruined it for everyone

Well, I guess we can go spend our money is other states prior to 4/1. Way to go CAB!

Screw it, if we're not conforming to dates anymore, let's go hunt them right now. Screw 'em. I can probably get off on monday if yall wanna go.

Dates are just numbers on a calendar.

.....as well as an edible sweet fruit grown in many tropical regions around the world

CNC, really. I dont need help to go pooo.