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QDM in the era of CWD #2846388
07/08/19 10:56 AM
07/08/19 10:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 16,618
Tupelo, MS
Remington270 Online content OP
Old Mossy Horns
Remington270  Online Content OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 16,618
Tupelo, MS
The QDMA mantra has always been to let young bucks walk. The age structure that's best according to them means you have some older bucks that live. Conveniently, this also means that hunters got to shoot bigger bucks, with bigger antlers. This was thought to be biologically responsible, and I'm sure it is, or was.

Now with CWD, the older bucks are the ones that generally carry the disease, and travel further from their home to breed. This, in theory, spreads it further, and quicker. Tennessee now has an "Earn-A-Buck Program". They are encouraging hunters to kill more bucks. A 180 degree reversal from the old way.

Which way is correct? Kill more bucks at a younger age, or kill less bucks and let them get old? I'm sure that bigger antlers complicate our decision making.

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846437
07/08/19 11:57 AM
07/08/19 11:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 292
Bessemer, Al
H
Hix14 Offline
4 point
Hix14  Offline
4 point
H
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 292
Bessemer, Al
I'm not so sure we aren't doing both now. Lots of clubs promote killing "mature deer" only, while other clubs go state game law only.

I've said it before that I'd rather see a spike killed versus a 6 point. 6 point is only a year or 2 away. Spike is 3.5 years away. Lot's of folks don't see it that way, but it's MY personal opinion. Oh, and I don't remember the last time I killed a spike or a 6 point.

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846466
07/08/19 12:38 PM
07/08/19 12:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 46,344
Under a Rock
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 46,344
Under a Rock

The older bucks are more suseptible to CWD, too, from whatever's been researched so far.

I say we shoot what makes us happy, whether it's a spike or 180-inch Booner, and stop trying to "grow big bucks!" all the time.


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

Coach Gus Malzen will have the boys ready! -- Ben2
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846469
07/08/19 12:40 PM
07/08/19 12:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,701
B'ham
G
Goatkiller Offline
10 point
Goatkiller  Offline
10 point
G
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,701
B'ham
Most QDMA clubs shoot all kinds of stuff.. They are typically hail bent on killing does and that means a bunch of buttons get smoked for "meat" and then of course there are the 20 "cull bucks" that they kill every year.

In my opinion you'll find that QDMA clubs that kill more deer than just normal clubs with out real restrictive antler rules.

Why? They incorrectly believe they can effectively manage their deer herd by their trigger finger.

The result is typically fewer deer overall and no better mature bucks getting killed than they would have otherwise.


Last edited by Goatkiller; 07/08/19 12:42 PM.
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846483
07/08/19 12:50 PM
07/08/19 12:50 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
JohnnyLoco Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
JohnnyLoco  Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
And just how does it spread again?

And what about research with tracking collars that show extensively without questions that old mature bucks move less, and breed in heavy cover and thats why they become old mature bucks?

What about the same studies that show young bucks are more aggressive breeders this have a wider range?

What about research that shows during the rut a buck loses a substantial amount of body weight because they simply don’t eat so they wouldn’t be hanging around other deer?

What about the fact nobody knows how in the hell it spread?

All of this crap is speculation by snot nosed liberal wildlife biologists that don’t know jack crap outside their desk and computer.


“Just do it, and be done, done it”
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: JohnnyLoco] #2846487
07/08/19 12:53 PM
07/08/19 12:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 16,618
Tupelo, MS
Remington270 Online content OP
Old Mossy Horns
Remington270  Online Content OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 16,618
Tupelo, MS
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco


All of this crap is speculation by snot nosed liberal wildlife biologists that don’t know jack crap outside their desk and computer.


I've met several state biologists in Alabama and Mississippi, and they know a lot more than I do.

But I do think the game has changed, in terms of what is biologically wise, now that CWD is here.

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846494
07/08/19 01:01 PM
07/08/19 01:01 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
JohnnyLoco Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
JohnnyLoco  Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
Just because they know the latin name for a buzzard or maggot don’t mean they know crap about hunting or animals.

Its spread how?

Its a plot to control lands and hunters. Luckily I believe in my God given right to feed myself and that would include eating game personnel.


Originally Posted by Remington270
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco


All of this crap is speculation by snot nosed liberal wildlife biologists that don’t know jack crap outside their desk and computer.


I've met several state biologists in Alabama and Mississippi, and they know a lot more than I do.

But I do think the game has changed, in terms of what is biologically wise, now that CWD is here.


Last edited by JohnnyLoco; 07/08/19 01:04 PM.

“Just do it, and be done, done it”
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846546
07/08/19 02:08 PM
07/08/19 02:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,715
Florence, Al
A
AlabamaSwamper Offline
10 point
AlabamaSwamper  Offline
10 point
A
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,715
Florence, Al
They don’t know anymore than anyone else on CWD

Pure and simple.

Areas that’s had CWD for decades in the Midwest and plains still have a rather high population of older bucks. They all still have high deer populations in 25 year hot zones. The only decrease in deer numbers was caused by bullets and dumb regulations. Not CWD

That is a fact


BTR Scorer in NW Alabama

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846732
07/08/19 06:27 PM
07/08/19 06:27 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 19,011
PDL, Fl
T
timbercruiser Offline
Old Mossy Horns
timbercruiser  Offline
Old Mossy Horns
T
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 19,011
PDL, Fl
I would guarantee that Blue Tongue kills a LOT more deer every year than CWD.

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: JohnnyLoco] #2846745
07/08/19 06:49 PM
07/08/19 06:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 46,344
Under a Rock
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 46,344
Under a Rock
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
Luckily I believe in my God given right to feed myself and that would include eating game personnel.


How do you cook game personnel? On the grill, smoker, slow cooker or perhaps sous vide?


"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

Coach Gus Malzen will have the boys ready! -- Ben2
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846754
07/08/19 07:06 PM
07/08/19 07:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 100
Tide Country
A
Antlerfluke Offline
3 point
Antlerfluke  Offline
3 point
A
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 100
Tide Country
Some of you people need to work for CNN. Downplaying biologists' roles or their expertise in wildlife mgmt? Let someone come into a mechanic's, electrician's, Heating & Air guy's, etc... space and that someone start claiming that they know more about those disciplines than the men/women that work in those areas and there would be an uproar.

QDMA is NOT about killing bigger antler bucks. Killing bigger antlered bucks is a bi-product of killing mature bucks. QDMA is about the healthy mgmt of a deer herd. Not Jackie Bushman, "How to kill a big buck!". Deer biologists study deer for a living. They get up in the AM and they study deer. It's their job. I'm amazed at how many people discredit them because the biologists' proven wildlife mgmt principles differ than someone's desire to burn powder. Believe it or not, there are hundreds of thousands of VERY specific and controlled deer studies that have been conducted at universities all over the USA. They study deer as medical professionals and universities study humans. And I don't confuse biologists from MSU, AU, UGA, Universities in TX etc... with liberal biologists from maybe Oregon or USC and that ain't U of South Carolina!

QDMA does NOT prescribe the killing of every doe you see. QDMA strives to keep a deer pop within a given area's carrying capacity and having a more balanced sex ratio with a balanced age structure for biological reasons too long to mention in this reply. If you (or your club) needs to shoot more does, then do it! If not, have the discipline to NOT pull the trigger! And use proven biologically sound methods as to if you need to kill more does or not.

QDMA works and it all ain't about the size of the antlers although ALL of us would rather kill a 130" buck than a 95" buck.

My hunting clubs is a QDMA club and we shoot bucks by age and you CAN age a buck on the hoof. No, my club doesn't like to kill 3.5 yr old bucks and we target 4.5 yr old bucks. We see LOTS of bucks and we kill a good many good quality bucks and NO, all mature bucks are not going to be 140" or better bucks. We kill a lot of 115" bucks that are 4 yrs old and we are happy about killing a trophy 4 yr old buck as that's what he is... a trophy at 4 yrs old.

Are there supposedly "QDMA" clubs that don't do the right thing? YES!! Culls????? That is TDM!!!!! I'm sick of the ignorant hunter or club that claims he or she or they (meaning a club) kills "culls". BS! Culls are for TDM. You ain't going to change genetics killing culls unless you have a high-fence and you control everything. Free-range is a different story.

My club doesn't shoot "culls" and we accidentally shoot very few button bucks because we don't shoot "lone does" as lone does are, 9 time out of 10, button bucks. Education! When someone brings back a button buck, we'll ask: "Was the deer by itself?" More times than not, the answer is yes. There's a biological reason for BB being by themselves. Don't shoot lone deer!! My club's BB numbers went way down when we educated all the hunters in our club.

My hunting club has almost zero turn-over of members. We are happy with what we are doing and greed doesn't sit well with all members. We kill some nice bucks and we SEE A LOT of bucks and if you kill a 4 yr old 4 pt, we're celebrating! If you kill a 2.5 yr old 8 pt, no, we're not happy but we know mistakes happens and mistakes are not hell, fire and damnation.

QDMA works for us. We are NOT a TDM as TDM is something totally different. We don't shoot every doe we see.

If you wanna bash a deer management philosophy, make sure you know what you're talking about. Know what QDMA supports and don't confuse those that practice something else but calls themselves QDMA supporters.

And yes, we let first time buck hunters shoot anything they want, but if the parent would preach a little discipline and patience, the FTBH has a GREAT chance at killing a 3.5 yr old buck. Hunting is no different than life... you get out what you put into it!!! The QDMA's philosophy works so don't show your ignorance by misrepresenting it.

And, without doubt, hunting clubs that practice true QDMA philosophies CAN mange their deer herds by their trigger finger by pulling and NOT pulling it!! When a hunting club with 10 - 20 members has zero or 0.05% turnover, you're doing something right. The number of mature bucks on our property keeps members coming back. And mainly, the member's kids are killing nice bucks with some occasional studs. QDMA's philosophies works for us.


Last edited by Antlerfluke; 07/08/19 08:14 PM.
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: JohnnyLoco] #2846770
07/08/19 07:41 PM
07/08/19 07:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,332
Grays Creek, NC
bigcountry692001 Offline
14 point
bigcountry692001  Offline
14 point
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,332
Grays Creek, NC
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
Just because they know the latin name for a buzzard or maggot don’t mean they know crap about hunting or animals.

Its spread how?

Its a plot to control lands and hunters. Luckily I believe in my God given right to feed myself and that would include eating game personnel.


Originally Posted by Remington270
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco


All of this crap is speculation by snot nosed liberal wildlife biologists that don’t know jack crap outside their desk and computer.


I've met several state biologists in Alabama and Mississippi, and they know a lot more than I do.

But I do think the game has changed, in terms of what is biologically wise, now that CWD is here.


There’s a lot of biologist that would disagree with you and probably tell you that you’re a phucking idiot

Last edited by bigcountry692001; 07/08/19 08:54 PM.
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Clem] #2846815
07/08/19 08:41 PM
07/08/19 08:41 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
JohnnyLoco Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
JohnnyLoco  Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
You have to bleed them first and then cook them. Every human I bit a chunk out of in combat taste coppery and not too swuft raw.

Originally Posted by Clem
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
Luckily I believe in my God given right to feed myself and that would include eating game personnel.


How do you cook game personnel? On the grill, smoker, slow cooker or perhaps sous vide?


“Just do it, and be done, done it”
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846817
07/08/19 08:44 PM
07/08/19 08:44 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
JohnnyLoco Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
JohnnyLoco  Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
Antlerfluke, I know plenty of high school drop out mechanics and HVAC folk that don’t know their ass from a hat. I even beat one down right after I retired because I wanted one quart of synthetic mixed with my regular oil. He got pissed because he thought he knew better and made the mistake of coming for me with a crowded waiting room. He lost everything, got locked up, drank from a straw for a while, is blind in one eye now, and I sued him and the Jiffy Lube, and won.

I only knock liberal biologists having a role in hunting programs.

I don’t give a rat’s behind about herd management for large racks or healthy herd and if Alabama did they wouldn’t have passed baiting. Baiting just artificially ups the numbers of all animals by supplementing the food source beyond what is naturally sustainable. Same thing with minorities and white trash !!!!

HOW IS CWD SPREAD AGAIN???

Last edited by JohnnyLoco; 07/08/19 08:57 PM.

“Just do it, and be done, done it”
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Remington270] #2846827
07/08/19 08:57 PM
07/08/19 08:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 624
Eastbound and Down
dead_eye Offline
4 point
dead_eye  Offline
4 point
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 624
Eastbound and Down
Damn there's a lot of words in this thread. I'm just going to shoot whatever I want within the legal boundaries. It ain't that difficult.

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: dead_eye] #2846830
07/08/19 08:59 PM
07/08/19 08:59 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
JohnnyLoco Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
JohnnyLoco  Offline
Certified Pecker Checker
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,460
Alabama/Texas
Originally Posted by dead_eye
Damn there's a lot of words in this thread. I'm just going to shoot whatever I want within the legal boundaries. It ain't that difficult.


You would think that should be good enough but our sport is increasingly under fire from liberals, know it alls, and supremacy.

You need a matrix to map out all of the waterfowl hunting rules these days.

Last edited by JohnnyLoco; 07/08/19 09:00 PM.

“Just do it, and be done, done it”
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: Antlerfluke] #2846836
07/08/19 09:03 PM
07/08/19 09:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 16,618
Tupelo, MS
Remington270 Online content OP
Old Mossy Horns
Remington270  Online Content OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 16,618
Tupelo, MS
Originally Posted by Antlerfluke
Some of you people need to work for CNN. Downplaying biologists' roles or their expertise in wildlife mgmt? Let someone come into a mechanic's, electrician's, Heating & Air guy's, etc... space and that someone start claiming that they know more about those disciplines than the men/women that work in those areas and there would be an uproar.

QDMA is NOT about killing bigger antler bucks. Killing bigger antlered bucks is a bi-product of killing mature bucks. QDMA is about the healthy mgmt of a deer herd. Not Jackie Bushman, "How to kill a big buck!". Deer biologists study deer for a living. They get up in the AM and they study deer. It's their job. I'm amazed at how many people discredit them because the biologists' proven wildlife mgmt principles differ than someone's desire to burn powder. Believe it or not, there are hundreds of thousands of VERY specific and controlled deer studies that have been conducted at universities all over the USA. They study deer as medical professionals and universities study humans. And I don't confuse biologists from MSU, AU, UGA, Universities in TX etc... with liberal biologists from maybe Oregon or USC and that ain't U of South Carolina!

QDMA does NOT prescribe the killing of every doe you see. QDMA strives to keep a deer pop within a given area's carrying capacity and having a more balanced sex ratio with a balanced age structure for biological reasons too long to mention in this reply. If you (or your club) needs to shoot more does, then do it! If not, have the discipline to NOT pull the trigger! And use proven biologically sound methods as to if you need to kill more does or not.

QDMA works and it all ain't about the size of the antlers although ALL of us would rather kill a 130" buck than a 95" buck.

My hunting clubs is a QDMA club and we shoot bucks by age and you CAN age a buck on the hoof. No, my club doesn't like to kill 3.5 yr old bucks and we target 4.5 yr old bucks. We see LOTS of bucks and we kill a good many good quality bucks and NO, all mature bucks are not going to be 140" or better bucks. We kill a lot of 115" bucks that are 4 yrs old and we are happy about killing a trophy 4 yr old buck as that's what he is... a trophy at 4 yrs old.

Are there supposedly "QDMA" clubs that don't do the right thing? YES!! Culls????? That is TDM!!!!! I'm sick of the ignorant hunter or club that claims he or she or they (meaning a club) kills "culls". BS! Culls are for TDM. You ain't going to change genetics killing culls unless you have a high-fence and you control everything. Free-range is a different story.

My club doesn't shoot "culls" and we accidentally shoot very few button bucks because we don't shoot "lone does" as lone does are, 9 time out of 10, button bucks. Education! When someone brings back a button buck, we'll ask: "Was the deer by itself?" More times than not, the answer is yes. There's a biological reason for BB being by themselves. Don't shoot lone deer!! My club's BB numbers went way down when we educated all the hunters in our club.

My hunting club has almost zero turn-over of members. We are happy with what we are doing and greed doesn't sit well with all members. We kill some nice bucks and we SEE A LOT of bucks and if you kill a 4 yr old 4 pt, we're celebrating! If you kill a 2.5 yr old 8 pt, no, we're not happy but we know mistakes happens and mistakes are not hell, fire and damnation.

QDMA works for us. We are NOT a TDM as TDM is something totally different. We don't shoot every doe we see.

If you wanna bash a deer management philosophy, make sure you know what you're talking about. Know what QDMA supports and don't confuse those that practice something else but calls themselves QDMA supporters.

And yes, we let first time buck hunters shoot anything they want, but if the parent would preach a little discipline and patience, the FTBH has a GREAT chance at killing a 3.5 yr old buck. Hunting is no different than life... you get out what you put into it!!! The QDMA's philosophy works so don't show your ignorance by misrepresenting it.

And, without doubt, hunting clubs that practice true QDMA philosophies CAN mange their deer herds by their trigger finger by pulling and NOT pulling it!! When a hunting club with 10 - 20 members has zero or 0.05% turnover, you're doing something right. The number of mature bucks on our property keeps members coming back. And mainly, the member's kids are killing nice bucks with some occasional studs. QDMA's philosophies works for us.




Everybody knows what QDM is. I started the thread because CWD appears to throw a monkey wrench in the "older bucks are better" mentality.

....and yes I understand CWD is incompletely understood. If we all understood it, we wouldn't have to talk about it.

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: JohnnyLoco] #2846861
07/08/19 09:20 PM
07/08/19 09:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 624
Eastbound and Down
dead_eye Offline
4 point
dead_eye  Offline
4 point
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 624
Eastbound and Down
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
Originally Posted by dead_eye
Damn there's a lot of words in this thread. I'm just going to shoot whatever I want within the legal boundaries. It ain't that difficult.


You would think that should be good enough but our sport is increasingly under fire from liberals, know it alls, and supremacy.

You need a matrix to map out all of the waterfowl hunting rules these days.


You're right about the waterfowl. You need a PHD to be legal. It's taken the fun out of ot for me.

Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: JohnnyLoco] #2846875
07/08/19 09:30 PM
07/08/19 09:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,176
Helena, AL
A
AU338MAG Online IMG_0051.GIF
12 point
AU338MAG  Online IMG_0051.GIF
12 point
A
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,176
Helena, AL
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
And just how does it spread again?

And what about research with tracking collars that show extensively without questions that old mature bucks move less, and breed in heavy cover and thats why they become old mature bucks?

What about the same studies that show young bucks are more aggressive breeders this have a wider range?

What about research that shows during the rut a buck loses a substantial amount of body weight because they simply don’t eat so they wouldn’t be hanging around other deer?

What about the fact nobody knows how in the hell it spread?

All of this crap is speculation by snot nosed liberal wildlife biologists that don’t know jack crap outside their desk and computer.

I agree 100% All of the little deer that show up pre rut could be from 5 miles away. They're young dumb bucks just roaming anywhere they smell some tail. Big boys stay home until the real rut begins.


Dying ain't much of a living boy...Josey Wales
Re: QDM in the era of CWD [Re: JohnnyLoco] #2846893
07/08/19 09:45 PM
07/08/19 09:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 46,344
Under a Rock
Clem Offline
Mildly Quirky
Clem  Offline
Mildly Quirky
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 46,344
Under a Rock
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
You have to bleed them first and then cook them. Every human I bit a chunk out of in combat taste coppery and not too swuft raw.

Originally Posted by Clem
Originally Posted by JohnnyLoco
Luckily I believe in my God given right to feed myself and that would include eating game personnel.


How do you cook game personnel? On the grill, smoker, slow cooker or perhaps sous vide?



I hope after you bleed them you soak them in a big cooler with lots of ice and a little salt for at least 7-10 days, draining the water and adding more ice as needed. Gotta get all that gamey flavor out of 'em.


Italian Dressing for the marinade?

Last edited by Clem; 07/08/19 09:46 PM.

"Hunting Politics are stupid!" - Farm Hunter

"Bible says you shouldn't put sugar in your cornbread." Dustin, 2013

Coach Gus Malzen will have the boys ready! -- Ben2
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