X2!

I haven't read this whole thread. I'm likely not smart enough to read it all. I did read the last couple of comments, one about fawn size.

I can't prove that deer have smaller fawns when they are young and larger as they age, but it stands to reason. Cows do that. Cows have their lightest birth weight calf for the first one, then they get larger until the cow gets about 8 years old, then birth weight starts decreasing again. That's not a particular cow, but rather cows in general. It would seem to me that would be pretty common with all species, but it may not be.

The reason that a cow gives birth to larger calves as she ages is because a heifer is still growing when she has her first calf, so she has to maintatin, grow and grow a fetus by eating. Each year her growth slows until around the age of five. Once she gets that age she only has maintenance and fetal growth to eat for. Seems logical to me that would carry over to a growing doe too, but that's not peer reviewed, double blind tested data, just a little farm boy logic.

49er

I agree to a large portion, I always argued at the club that we should let some of all age class bucks be killed each year. That set off a firestorm of exactly which 2.5 yr old buck to kill, trying to appease some in the club with protect all young bucks rationale. If you recall I had some major discussions with BSK at that time. Trying to find the BEST possible CULL Buck to put on the hit list.

We finally did away with fines on Button Bucks, guess what happened, we killed absolutely Zero BB's the next year.

Does are almost impossible to age in the field, some very experienced people might get it right most of the time in a good year. Always heard the grey on the nose deal, we aged many with gray at 2.5 yr old, not hard to age that class. Some young ones weighed more than average while some old does weighed less than average while being in really good condition considering.

About the does without fawns, I've seen 4 does come in like clockwork for 2 weeks without fawns. It was apparent they were of age to have fawns. Well finally the 7 fawns showed up with their moms.
I was just as upset during the 2 weeks cause at the time I was arguing pretty hard with my friend, a biologist that yote's take their toll on fawns.
at the time it was not accepted as factual.

I will agree that too many have become ravenous about how far to go with QDM, not fully understanding all aspects of it. Never forget an older fellow downing a kid that killed a 2.5 yr old 8 point with about a 15" spread, the kid was damn happy and his father was even more excited. This fellow kept talking about how that one should have been let go to grow.

The 3 buck limit is the answer to anyones goals as to managing their property. If you need to kill more bucks, take a kid or 2, there's the answer.

td,


Who said anything about antlers?



The better mature bucks are more likely to keep the less fit from breeding. Remove those better bucks and it's every man for himself again. Just saying.



I invited everybody to use their own figures. Have you done any of that before running your mouth?



How did you determine what I assumed about more mature bucks moving in or out of the property? I didn't say anything about it.

Like jlcoffee pointed out, I figure it's probably about even one way or the other, so I didn't consider that to be a significant factor.



So then, how did you get to the point of having everything figured out so perfectly in your own mind that you want others to be made to conform to your ideas? Numbers don't lie.

Play around with your own numbers that you believe to be realistic like I said. That's better than just cutting other people's ideas down so quickly before you do a little homework to back up what you're saying. Those numbers might reveal a little truth to you if you give them half a chance.

Suggestions:

Ask members of this forum at random how much property they have to hunt or manage, how many people hunt on it due to the costs and then look at the only deer density maps of Alabama that are available to us. Put together differenct scenarios and swap variables to see what changes and what is constant. Then do the math as best you can. You can refer to percentage by age class estimates of Alabama's buck age structure that you can find if you try hard enough. If someone you consider to be as ignorant as me can find it, then you shouldn't have any problems at all.

I dont' expect to see you on the forum for a while. You are a serious deer manager like you claim, so I know you will be doing your homework to get the bottom of this like a responsible manager that's sincere about supporting his opinions with good evidence and data to back them up. You don't take someone else's word without putting it to the test like a good scientists does.

I know it will take you a little time. I've tried it. So we'll see you back here when you've done your homework.

The problem with QDM is that people use that for an excuse to kill does. QDM clearly states that you need to kill does if your buck to doe ratio is out of kilter but you can also accomplish this by killing fewer bucks. The only other reason is if you deer density is at or above the carrying capacity of the land. That is it no other reason. If you believe in or practice QDM and you are killing does for any other reasons you are not practicing QDM you are using it as a ploy to satisfy your needs/wants to kill does. So if you are just please don't say you are doing it for the sake of QDM because you are corrupting the minds of young hunters and causing them to kill deer for the wrong reason. Just be honest with them and tell them we are killing all theses does because we can and that is what we like to do.

This was taken directly from the QDMA web site.

Myth 2: QDM Requires Killing Numerous Does

Many QDM pioneers have been quoted as saying, �Shoot every doe you can, and then shoot three more.� Such statements were generally true when spoken, but times and situations change, and as managers we need to adapt to current conditions. In the past, many programs benefitted from aggressive antlerless deer harvests, hence the recommendation to shoot all available does. However, as deer herds are reduced, similarly aggressive harvests are less necessary or advised. In addition, predator populations are increasing in many areas of the U.S. and Canada. Expanding coyote, black bear, bobcat and wolf populations are important mortality sources, and in some cases new mortality sources, for deer herds.

The take-home message is the appropriate antlerless harvest for a property should be determined locally. The local deer density, habitat quality, mortality factors (predators, winter severity, vehicle kills, etc.) and landowner goals all impact the number of antlerless deer that can or should be harvested. These factors vary annually and thus antlerless harvest goals should also be determined on an annual basis. Based on the above factors, some QDM programs will require large antlerless harvests, some will require moderate antlerless harvests, and some will require minimal or even no antlerless harvests. It�s as incorrect to state that all QDM programs require large antlerless harvests as it is to state that all hunters hunt from a vehicle, or over a food plot, or in a swamp.

mike,


Why do people feel like they need the QDMA to tell them what the right thing to do is?

I knew their teaching was screwed up when they were telling everybody to �Shoot every doe you can, and then shoot three more� at the same time the state was having to restock deer on 44,000 acres in the area where I had hunted all my life after it was leased from US Steel for a public hunting area. They hadn't hunted there. I had.

Now they want to try to change what they taught people to do? How do you know that what they are teaching you now will still be called the "right" way to do it within the next few years?

If they don't know what your current conditions are, how can they teach you the "right" way to mange your property?

They can't without doing it in very general terms that are as flexible as your "current conditions" are.

The trend has 'caught on' and will continue until FORCED to stop!

Hunters have been told for so long to shoot does aggressively and they will have big bucks, that it will take Regulations to reduce it.

Like it or not, that is the simple Truth. As I have already pointed out, if there was no need for the DCNR, we would not have it. And, like it or not, their role is NOT to be a personal guardian for YOUR property. Fieldwork involving the enforcement of Regulations and Laws should/is only a SMALL part of their actual role in Conserving our Wildlife!

13 mature bucks on 5,000 acres
Goal is 4+ yr old bucks for harvest
40 members plus family and guests.

Judging by the last sentence, none of your mature bucks will be killed unless one just slips up. Due to the excessive pressure created by putting 80 plus guns on the property (assuming that just 2 people per family membership hunt and not even counting guests)they will all go nocturnal. With a typical AL membership, you'll end up with maybe one mature buck killed by accident that chased a doe into a plot, probably a few 3 yr olds that people assumed were 4 based purely on antler size and a bunch of 2 yr olds once again based on antler size. Sad fact is, most hunters in AL don't know how to age a deer on the hoof and there is no way that you can find 40 members plus family and guests that even have a clue. You'll turnover a large number of your 2 yr olds each year, just a few of your 3's and maybe a mature buck or two every couple years. With 40 members, the mature buck population is not going to get hurt much at all.

You are right.

But, that is the reason why TDM is not feasible for MOST people/Clubs. Once you get the herd down to where TDM requires it; the opportunities actually go WAAYYYY down.

Not sure where all the well-meaning QDM'ers crossed the line to TDM; but it dang sure happened!!!

True and most clubs that claim to be TDM are really more QDM cause they are killing more 3 year olds than mature bucks. I know quite a few landowners and know of only 2 that practice and have been successful with TDM. Their goal is to kill mature bucks only (and some does) but they still make mistakes and kill a few really good 3 year olds every now and then. Both properties are several thousand acres and on a really good year they kill 5-7 bucks. Probably only 3-4 people hunt on an average weekend (landowner and friends). They have been doing this since the early 80's and continue to kill 140" plus, mature, 200 lb. plus bucks every season. I don't see a flaw in their system but I'm no expert or biologist. TDM is very very hard to achieve even with private land and just a few hunters. The hardest part is dealing with the time required to get to where you can consistently see mature bucks every season. You can't decide to be a TDM club and after 2 years of not killing a buck decide to quit. My guess is it would take 3-4 years of letting 3 year olds walk before you started getting numerous opportunities at multiple mature bucks. I would personally like to move toward this where I hunt but if everyone isn't on board 100% it doesn't work. My guess is on our place we will continue to kill a decent number of 3 year old bucks and a few mature bucks b/c right now the unwritten rule is if you kill it you have to mount it, so pretty much any mid 120's or better buck is going to get whacked. Hopefully down the road we'll agree to start killing based on age not horns, but either way we've come a long way and things are pretty good.

I agree a lot people say QDM but harvest the does like TDM and the and the bucks like QDM and then wonder why we don't see a lot of deer and don't kill bucks like we use to

2 really well put comments

I read some of these comments about QDM/QDMA and I am still shaking my head... The QDMA does NOT support and never has the over-harvest of does!! QDMA clearly states: "Determining the appropriate number of deer to harvest by sex and age is essential." What it does support is making deer harvest decisions based on recorded data and observations and not what Uncle Joe says should be done b/c he's sat in a shooting house every weekend for 30 years.

If your recorded data, hunter observations amongst other collected data demonstrates that you need to NOT shoot any does, DON'T Shoot'em!!!!!

Also, NEVER does the QDMA mention in its mission statement, "Trophy" bucks.

QDM means responsibly managing your deer herd as well as your habitat. Now, sometimes that means "restraint, discipline, hard work, pulling the trigger and NOT pulling the trigger, collecting data, etc..." and basically doing what's right for the deer herd and habitat and not necessarily doing what a particular hunter would want to do. However, the rewards are worth it.

And do not label the guy that criticized that young hunter for killing that 2.5 year old buck as the flag barer of the QDM/QDMA movement! He's not! Brian Murphy, the Director of the QDMA very much supports young hunters and he supports responsible harvest. Brian as well as me, would be jumping for joy at a young hunter's killing of a young 4 pt!!!!

There's not a better opportunity for teaching your children ethics and responsibility than "hunting", and doing the right thing and abiding by the laws and not being greedy when no one's watching! Such observations by kids looking at their father's ability to put down the gun and let ducks land all around when a limit has been reached. My dad is unfortunately dead, but I can damn well say that he was as honest and responsible as anyone could be as he demonstrated it in the woods and on the water in front of me and I hope my children can say the same about me.

Hunting should be fun and enjoyable but I'm happy and satisfied watching a young buck walk and don't have to kill it and cut the antlers off and throw in the back of my truck to check the hunt off as a successful hunt.

The QDMA has no problem with people killing immature bucks as long as "responsible" deer harvest is practiced. One hunter killing a bunch of immature bucks is not responsible deer harvest.

If any of you criticizing QDM/QDMA can go to the www.qdma.com website and find something you disagree with, post it. It would help me and other supporters of the QDMA understand where you're coming from.

I'm done with this thread as I can't continue correcting what has been the unfair labeling of QDM/QDMA, its supporters, it philosophy for the purpose of stacking the deck. Some of you throw unfair rhetoric around like liberal democrats.

I support the QDMA, its research, it mission, its members... There's no doubt that if you get a bunch of whitetail biologists in a room, they'll fight about all kinds of things regarding how to, what, when and where but there's one thing they all agree on and that's the betterment of hunting, our nation's deer herd and habitat. Oh, let's not forget education.

You're right Bucktrot, many confuse the actual guidelines that QDMA promotes. Some are believers in the ideals and some are not, some really get TDM mixed up for QDM.

EXACTLY!!!

And, many are confused about the difference.

I believe in the principles of QDM. Heck, most people would if the actually read it and understood it! But, for MOST of the people I know, they just use the acronym as a reason to shoot does!

Dang it Hogwild!!! I bet you and I would agree on many things. (I know, I said I was going to not post on this topic again but I can't help myself!

If they're shooting a bunch of does without good reason, then they're not practicing QDM!!!

That's my point!!! I 100% agree with you Hogwild that there are places where too many does have been killed and yotes are eating A LOT of fawns in many places around AL!!

I love seeing deer. I want as many deer on my property as my habitat will allow.

A common and shared philosophy Hogwild!

My point on the doe thing is very simple, not always are the signs being read correctly and this is not directed at you Hogwild.

We had some very experienced hunters on the lease that were worried once about deer sightings. Said they weren't even coming to the fields. They said there was not much if any deer droppings on the field so the deer were not using the fields. The club paid $500-600 for exclusion cages to be put on the fields as many as 3 per field depending on size. Within 2 weeks it was proven that there were deer and they were using the fields rather heavily.

This past deer season, 2 guy were not seeing any deer period. These guys seen plenty of deer 2 years ago, killed several good bucks, seemed to see bucks and does on every trip. They were biatching this season about not seeing any. Well the guy that wasn't seeing anything 2 years ago seen plenty of deer this season on the same tract.

Kinda weird I guess.

Only by keeping records every year especially daily hunter observations, things might make sense of what's going on. Going off memory is not a good way to figure out what is going on. We kept records for over 10 years while I was in the club, not sure what they are doing now.

Back to the culls, really no such thing unless in a true TDM program.
Arguments for High grading a herd re on both sides or least last time I looked at it.

You know, Carter......

You are right about many people just not knowing how to tell if there are deer there or not; and how to hunt them.

JUST LIKE I am right that there are numerous properties in our area not worth hunting due to the severe shortage of deer!

Funny thing is, even on the areas of extremely low densities, I can't tell a difference in the SIZE of the deer; just the numbers!!!

Anybody ever heard of the Point of Diminishing Returns????
Or, as my Dad always said, "Too much is just like not enough"!

There was a time, not long ago, that I heard several biologists say that we could not shoot too many does by legal hunting means. That seems to be changing. I don't fault a biologist or any other expert for their opinion or for stating their opinion but I do think they should always qualify that by letting people know it is only an opinion.

At the same time hunters thru legal means can not completely kill off a deer herd, it has been tried several times and hasn't happened. I even know of a small fenced in place that couldn't kill all the local deer, they tried every legal means.

Not sure if the Sandhills Project had wolves at the time they tried to legally kill off the deer up there.

The coyote's role has changed and maybe the biologist will include that into the equation now.