What about the guys at Giles Island? They have experience too I guess. Also, the article says that the idea of a cull buck is a legitimate concept.

We aren't talking about someone making bad decisions. We are talking about if taking out a buck displaying a certain undesirable and heritable trait will change the incidence of the trait. Obviously it will.

You can argue this to death and what if this and what if that from now till the end of time. The guys at Giles Island are "culling" 125" deer, none of us will ever hunt places that you are doing that. Like I said, if it's your land, do what you want. But I have never been in or been a guest of a club that I would trust the whole membership to determine a "cull" buck and trying to change the genetic make up of a piece of property of free roaming deer, is impossible...

Yeah, 49er, that's all I have for you as it wouldn't matter how many studies I'd site, you would never believe anything that calls for hunter restraint. My issue with you isn't about culls. I support culling if it's done right and not an excuse to pull the trigger. From what I gather, you don't like any restraint on the killing of any buck of any age.

I gave up on you a long time ago, 49er. You're a consumer of wildlife and can't figure out these two words.... Limited Resource. You're the reason why we have game laws.

No disrespect 49er. I respect your right to have an opinion but not your right to kill at will.

You don't cite any studies because there aren't any to back up your speculation about "culling".

You aren't helping your credibility when you make such statements that you can't support with credible evidence. Instead of making false accusations about me (which is disrespectful, btw), why don't you try either looking for something to share with us that supports what you say or quit saying it?

*********************

My response - but I want to keep it short but there is so much to say about this subject.

Anyway, I'm going to cut-n-paste here but here's my philosophy taken from the QDMA website, to which I have been a member since 1994.

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, does.

In reading many post you've typed on aldeer.com 49er, you're against any restrictions/restraints/laws/management etc... when it comes to fish and game. Which leads me to ask... why don't you start a brand new thread and title it: "49er's philosophy on fish and game management." And, if you support laws regulating such, state your general foundation for fish and game laws.

Let me say this, I'm not a biologist. I'm also not a doctor, nor a builder, nor a farmer. HOWEVER, it's not hard to acquire a GREAT deal of knowledge on those subjects if you have the DESIRE and are willing to accept the general foundation/principles of a majority of educated practitioners in that field of study. So, armed through education, I can treat many of my own illnesses, maintain my own health, build a structure, take out a wall in my house and successfully plant my own garden and I don't mean just throwing seed in the ground but soil samples and having the best soil I can have for growing what I want!

With that said 49er, I accept what would be considered the general foundation and knowledge of hundreds of thousands of educated individuals in that field of study. But, I'm sure you'd ask your doctor for "studies" when he/she tells you that you need to have surgery to fix your broken leg with bone sticking out!!

So here's what I believe and have generally accepted as truth:

I do not "trophy" manage for deer. I "Quality" manage and there's a difference.
Immature bucks are very easy to kill, "IF THEY EXISTS and haven't already been killed."
I believe that a group of hunters on any given piece of property, without restraint, can kill a majority of the immature bucks on that property.
I believe that mature does in a given location, all come into estrus within the general timeframe. ***For the past two decades, studies conducted at UGA have attempted to unravel the mystery of how an estrous doe advertises her readiness to bucks in the area. Given that estrus or the “heat” period occurs only once per month and lasts only 24 to 36 hours.*** - Brian Murphy, Biologist and Director of the QDMA.
If there are not enough bucks to breed all the estrus does, the does go out of estrus and come back into estrus 28-30 days later. (I'm not wasting my time to quote a study on this and the fact that I'm saying it 49er, should spur you to research this statement if you disagree!)
This has been referred as the "second rut" and the aforementioned is repeated at least three times, maybe more but I am not sure what happens if a doe isn't bred! Found out and let me know 49er!
The 2nd/3rd estrus cycle adversely results in fawns being born later in the year thus forcing the mother and fawn to be exposed to less nutritious browse b/c as you know 49er, as the year goes along, browse starts to burn up as droughts occur and the plants' growing season plateaus. You do know 49er that a "growing" plant is more nutritious than a non-growing plant, right? No study to back here but again, research it if you don't believe me!

Let's talk about a lengthened rut and the stress it causes on the few bucks in your herd that are left. Which had your rather have. A condensed rut where most all does are bred on their first cycle and all does are bred on their 2nd cycle and the bucks can get back to eating and eating and maintain their health. OR... a long rutting process where bucks rut (bucks had rather go without eating than miss out of breeding. That's not hard to believe is it?) This long rutting process takes its toll on bucks for reasons I shouldn't have to quote.

Let's talk about the late-born fawns as a result of does being bred 30, 60 and 90 days after their first estrus cycle! Poor nutrition and stress on both mother and fawns. I'd rather have my fawns be born as early as possible (gestation period approx 200 days) than during the absolute stress period when browse is burned up and the acorns haven't dropped yet (if there's an acorn crop). These late born fawns have to play "catch up" and let's say the fawn is a buck... he'll go into the spring green-up with a lower body weight and will be behind his counterpart who may have been born much earlier and gotten the jump on him b/c of obvious reasons I should not have to point out, 49er.

I wonder what a really late-born fawn buck will look like and what kind of antlers he'll have his second fall. Afterall, he entered the spring way under weight and smaller than his buddy who was born two/three months before him! Would he be considered a "cull" to some people? It is believed that the late-born fawn does, eventually, catch up but wouldn't you want to alleviate late-born fawns altogether?!?!?

Spoiler had a great example of the age structure of bucks... Graduating seniors of high school always have a recruitment of juniors that will take their place when the seniors "graduate".

I can tell you this and you don't need a study.... immature bucks are very easy to kill. (Again, but only if they exists!!!!) Mature bucks are very hard to kill and the only way to increase your chances would be to have more of them!!

A sex balanced deer herd is important. Nature already slants it in favor of bucks as, if I remember that study I can't quote, bucks make up 51% of fawns. There are other studies that support the greater mortality of bucks and no, I can't quote them but conventional wisdom would support that belief.

Here's the difference in you and me 49er. I am more concerned with my deer herd's health and well-being more than my desire to pull the trigger. But I know this.... when I have a healthy deer herd and a sex-balanced deer herd with acceptable age structures of bucks, I know my hunting experiences will increase and I don't have to kill a buck to enjoy a day in the field.

Deer hunting is kinda like being married and being unselfish. If you both give, give, give to each other instead of always wanting to take, take, take.... what you get out of it by "giving" far outweighs what you'd "take" in the first place.

But here's the guarantee.... Mother Nature always holds up her end of the bargain whereas your marriage partner may not!

Give me some good information that supports placing restrictions on killing bucks in an attempt to create a "balanced age structure" as opposed to "culling" in an attempt to improve the genetics of the remaining deer.

Let's discuss both the benefits and the "harm" that results from each of the practices.

If we need to discuss it in another thread, that's fine.

I'm not a fan of "culling" but I guess it has its place. In Trophy Deer Mgmt, which I don't practice b/c I don't have the money, time or land ownership, culling is a part of the plan.

In Quality Deer Mgmt, culling is less important and my focus is more on a healthy deer herd and the killing of mature bucks.

Let me ask you this: How hard is it to kill a 1.5 yr old buck? I have to footnote this... "If he exists."

What are your thoughts on does and estrus cycles?

Gestation periods?

Thoughts on the peak and valley regarding browse. I.E. Green-up to dormancy?

What happens to a deer herd which is unbalanced heavily toward does?

Let's go from there.

Let's take it to another thread.

I'll start it off with the title: "Discussion of Options"

LOL!! Oh, heavens!! Here we go!

"Hey Baby!!! I may be a while!! I know, I know... there are tons of things to do around the house and this is my first weekend home. I'm sorry!!! OK... I will get to it soon!!!"

49er, I really don't have time for this!!!

I understand. Life must go on.

I've got time restrictions on my posting, so it would eat up too much of my time trying to have a decent discussion anyhow.

Take care,
Eddie

OK... I'm leaving town soon and have a butt load of things to do around the house.

Hey, we can agree to disagree and forgive me if I sometimes may sound sarcastic, which I don't mean to be.

I'll be out from Aldeer for a while.

Hope your season was a success, Eddie.

I actually asked this question on another board. It was more geared toward the harvesting of spikes because I stumbled over this research done in Texas.
Deer Study

I don't have a problem with culling... if it's actually legitimate. However, to use a term from many biologists, you need to first, plug the lowest hole in the bucket and in my opinion, culling isn't he lowest hole!!

Yes, culling takes place on a lot of game ranches but I believe those deer mgrs have addressed or are addressing all the other issues of deer mgmt by the time they start talking about culling.

I think there is some truth to the fact that a "late-born buck fawn" has some catching up to do and may only be able to push out spikes when he's 1 yr old. I would like some biologists to chime in on their thoughts.

Also, every buck here in Alabama ain't going to be a 150" 5.5 yr old. I'm very happy with a mature 125" 8 pt but heck yes, I would love to grow much larger bucks but I hunt leased land with other hunters and it's just really really hard to get everybody on the same page including your neighbors. I want to remain realistic but if there are some guys out there that need a hunting member willing to pass up a 3.5 yr old 125-130", I'd love that but you'd need a considerable amount of land and some very educated, patient hunters hunting "quality" land or with deep pockets for some major habitat enhancement!

I think if you really want to peel back the onion and shoot spikes, then you would first need to do fetal research studies to find out exactly when does are bred and what percentage are bred on their first cycle and second cycle, etc... Are these spike bucks a result of late born buck fawns getting a late start? Not just a "late start" but a late start topped with lower nutrition than the fawns born 30-90 days earlier!

Also, filling out hunter observation forms after each hunt with pertinent useable data; when do you stop seeing spotted fawns?, weighing harvested deer, pulling jawbones, keeping detailed records, taking soil samples.

Get your sex ratio as balanced as possible and see if that makes a difference and the mass shooting of 2.5 yr old bucks and younger will have to stop.

Sigh... so many other holes in the bucket that are lower to plug up.

In way too many places, high grading has taken place. Clubs may tout: "We're 8 pts or better!" Well, that's a start but in my opinion, the wrong start! Usually, a 2 1/2 yr old eight point walks out into a food plot... the kind of 2 1/2 you WANT to protect and the hunter looks at the buck's antlers and counts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, BOOM!!!! And down goes a 2 1/2 yr old pretty basket racked, "very dumb deer by the way", 8 pt. Standing beside the young 8 pt is a 4.5 yr old or older, very nice 6 or 7 pt and that bucks runs off... to breed.

I don't know what the answer is but aging deer on the hoof should be required of members by hunting clubs that want to manage. It takes a lot of practice and I'm not great at it myself but if I see a pencil-neck, 12" 8 pt walk out, I am not killing it. A first-time-hunter can, but I won't.

Talking about high-grading.... that has been practiced for many years on a lot of acres and it would be my opinion that it has negatively affected bucks' antlers.

Not sure you understood what I was saying. If your working in a high fenced area then dominant bucks cant run other bucks off your property so my theory doesn't matter. In Alabama you are going to see bucks that are 3+ yrs old that you know will never be high scoring bucks. I say cull those bucks out not because of any genetic traits they may pass down but because they will inevitably run off other bucks that could have the potential to grow larger racks. Everytime you harvest a mature buck a void is left that will eventually be filled by another buck. So in essence why would you allow a buck to occupy territory on your property if he is not of the caliber that you consider a trophy? I do agree that culling should only be done on bucks at least three years of age and even then only the bucks that your fairly certain dont have the potential they need. Of course you must first be certain that you have given them the nutritional foundation needed to fully express their genetic potential.

How long do you believe the general timeframe is during which the mature does come into estrus?

According to research (as quoted on the AL DNR website) higher Boone and Crockett scores are associated with greater genetic fitness such as a stronger immune system. Since you claim that you are most concerned about the deer herd's health, are you allowing the mature deer with the highest boone and crockett scores to walk on your property while taking those with the lowest scores? Since the antlers of higher scoring bucks are an outward exhibition of the genetic fitness of the buck, it would be best for the health of the herd to leave those higher scoring deer to pass on their superior genes.

Are you really most concerned about the health of the herd?

ok yall getting deeper in than i go . to me a buck got to pretty messed up (on both sides )to be a cull .

jlccoffee, I bow hunt and I didn't pick up a rifle all season and I shoot mature bucks and I'm indiscriminate on does. If the buck is a mature five point, I'll probably whack him. You're trying to paint me into a corner of being a "trophy" hunter, which, yes, I love killing big mature bucks with high scoring antlers, like most hunters but I practice QDM.

So to answer your senseless and ulterior question jlccoffee, my target is mature bucks no matter what size antlers he has but I'd rather shoot a high scoring racked buck no doubt. But I'm a bow hunter so I don't think I'm a threat to wiping out my herd's healthiest bucks.

Don't question my sincerity on being concerned about herd health and you can practice the killing of any age/size buck you want as long as you stay within the laws of this state.

Your analogy would be like saying if you love your kids, you would not whip them.

You are like everyone else. It has noting to do with whipping your children. It has to do with you hunt in a certain way that makes you happy. You use the excuse of "doing it for the deer herd" in order to try to force others to hunt in the same way.

It your were truly doing what is best for the deer herd...you would let those superior bucks go.

I'm still wondering how long you think the time period is during which the mature does come into estrus?

Jlccoffee, I am not trying to force you, or anyone else, to do anything. I practice QDM in the way the QDMA would practice it. If you don't like how I practice deer mgmt then you don't like how thousands of hunters and a majority of states practice deer mgmt.

Make sure to not move or hunt in such states as Kentucky as they're much, much more restrictive than AL!

When someone such as 49er attempts to discredit QDM and what thousands of biologists nationwide, institutions of higher learning, etc... have compiled, I am going to speak up as this is a discussional site.

In the end, I support conservation and doing what is best for wildlife and when I do that, I and maybe YOU, or somebody is rewarded, including the deer.