Have any of you seen and studies done in the southeast on this subject. I have read some done in Texas that say 10%-20% a year. What is your own opinion on what percentage of bucks die each from something other than a hunter. Let's say you had a piece of unhunted property that had 100 1 year old bucks on it how many of them would make it to 2 Then how many of those would make it to 3 and then to 4 and then to 5. At 15% you would end up with only about 1/2 of those 100 bucks making it to 5 years old. Here is the conclusion to a study done in TX.

WHAT DOES THIS ENTIRE RESEARCH MEAN?
First, managing for mature, trophy bucks is not very efficient because many bucks will die each year of natural causes. To illustrate this, let’s start with a population of 100 six-month-old buck fawns. Our buck mortality research indicates that an average of 46 percent of buck fawns will die of natural causes from December-May, reducing the buck population to only 54 1.5-year-old bucks. Our data shows that an average of 37 percent of 1.5-year-old bucks will die of natural causes so, after the second year the buck population has decreased to only 34 2.5-year-old bucks. Our research indicates that an average of 7 percent of 2.5-year-old bucks die each year, knocking the population down to 32 3.5-year-old bucks. We found that 20 percent of 3.5-year-old bucks die of natural causes, so we are now left with 26 4.5-year-old bucks. Natural mortality in 4.5-year-old bucks is the lowest of any age class (1 percent) and all 26 bucks survive to 5.5-years-old. Of the 26 5.5-year-old bucks, 6 percent will die before reaching 6.5-years-old. Therefore, only 24 bucks, out of the original 100-buck fawns, will survive to 6.5-years-old, the age at which antler growth peaks. This shockingly high rate of natural mortality means that without any hunting at all, 76 of 100 buck fawns will die before 6.5-years-old! Ranch owners, managers, and hunters interested in managing for mature, trophy bucks need to realize that in south Texas the majority of bucks will die of natural causes before reaching maturity.

This is why you don't see many 4-5 year old bucks during the rut, most of them are already dead.

I can believe that. I have seen more road kill in the last week than I saw all deer season.

I found some data a while back but I'm not sure of the source. It included natural mortality and hunting. The natural mortality increased with age in the study I read.

If you throw hunting into the mix, the number is much lower. I tried to come up with a way to predict how many age class bucks there would be on a property if you protected a certain age class. My mortality and hunting numbers stopped with 5 1/2 year olds. Here's what I came up with.

I started with a total population of around 90 bucks that were 1.5 to 6.5. If you protect only fawns, you would have 4 bucks that are 5 1/2 and 2 that are 6 1/2.

If you protect 1.5 year old bucks, you end up with 5 bucks 5 1/2, and 3 that are 6 1/2.

If you protect 2.5 year old bucks, you end up with 7 bucks 5 1/2 and 4 that are 6 1/2

If you protect 3.5 year old bucks, you end up with 12 bucks 5 1/2 and 6 that are 6 1/2

As you protect older age classes, then you end with up with a higher number of total bucks. If you started with 90 bucks, that would grow to 139 bucks after 6 years if you protected 3 1/2 year olds and younger. I had no way to account for dispersal. I also am guessing that higher populations also increase natural mortality rates.

This was very unscientific but I was just trying to understand, based on the study I read, how protecting up to a certain age class would change the overall age structure of the herd. The bottom line is that not many bucks make it to 5 1/2 and of those, only about half make it to 6 1/2.

That sounds about right. When you start putting actuall numbers to this it makes you realize why you see so few 4+ year old deer compared to 1-2 year olds. The answer to what happen to all those young deer I let go last year is they are dead. That is one reason it is very hard for a club to go from a 6 or 8 point or better club to a only kill 4 or 5 year old bucks. The pool of bucks you are able to kill shrinks dramatically, and most people can't deal with only killing a buck every 2-3 years. But if you have a piece of property big enough to hold 90 bucks but have only 10 or so mature deer out of those 90 it don't give you very many opportunities to kill a buck.

That's exactly right!!! Especially when you are paying 2000+ for a club, it's difficult not to shoot something.

I was listening to the Hunting Public podcast, and they did a property evaluation of a guy with a 1,300 acre club. They have like 17 members and several retired guys that wear the place out. Wondering why they don't see kill mature bucks. That's a real head scratcher...

My thoughts are most of the young bucks in our State get shot before they reach maturity. There are not many, if hardly any, untouched and non-hunted areas of this State where a deer can survive gun season unmolested. These areas will be more and more urban in the future just like over in Georgia. They are killing all kinds of huge deer in the suburbs of Atlanta. Why? Minimal hunting pressure. Nothing has changed with the genetics they have been there all along. Same with Alabama IMO.

#2 Killing a bunch of deer, in particular does - doesn't grow antlers. Having the proper age class in your deer herd is what grows antlers. It is a numbers game. The more deer you have, the more bucks you will have (if you can keep your finger off the trigger). The next step... the more bucks you have - the more likely a few will reach maturity.

We have great deer hunting in this State due to overall numbers but 5 year old deer are poorly represented in the skinning shed. We just don't have a lot of mature deer in this State. That's the reason we are NOT known for big bucks statewide. They don't exist. Got kilt when they were 2.5.

Actually, its very easy not to shoot a deer.

Perfect example. That mentality right there ^^^, along with the 90+ days of gun hunting, coupled with all the "meat hunting" that goes on in Alabama is why we do not have very many older age class bucks in our herd. It's really easy not to shoot something. Sometimes I may go 3 years without killing a buck. Not because I didnt have 15-20 chances each year to kill a good rack buck but because I was specifically hunting older mature deer and usually one or two specific bucks.

OK, you pay my club dues and I will find it MUCH easier not to kill anything less that 4 1/2.

That's the mentality that is the main reason for the lack of fully mature bucks

In a season I may see up to 25 bucks that I think are 3 1/2. Of course I see a LOT more of 2 1/2 and younger. I don't see that many 4 1/2+ deer. I don't know if their patterns change, they become totally nocturnal or what, but often I don't even get them on camera. They seem to often disappear after 3 1/2. We (me and a few others) try to shoot mature deer but a lot of even 2 1/2 year old deer will meet our standards. While I pass up deer that I think are 3 1/2 or younger, it is tough when the next guy doesn't.

I guess we try to have a balance between seldom shooting anything and killing a few. Every year, we have a couple really good deer killed and everything else, in my opinion, is marginal. We also have some older class bucks that are killed that aren't that impressive, as far as the rack is concerned.

The older I get the more I am concerned about enjoying the hunt. If that means killing a buck in the heat of the moment, that is hot on the trail of a doe, then so be it. I also enjoy watching deer and am usually very slow to pull the trigger. Whatever the case it, the simple fact is that not many bucks make it to 5 1/2+ and those that do didn't get there by being careless.

I love hunting for that trophy. Like most of you guys, I've let a ton of "decent" bucks go over the years. Having hunted in Texas, Illinois and Alabama, I have seen some studs. Even lucky enough to kill a couple of really nice deer. But I heard an old man say something, years ago in one of our preseason hunting club meetings. The debate came up about 6 point or better versus 8 point or better, etc. He said he'd vote to let 2.5 year old 6 points walk and would rather kill 18 month old spikes. His point was that the 6 point is only a year or 2 away from potentially being a shooter. The spike is 3 - 4 years away. Makes some sense. Of course, none of us killed spikes or 2.5 year old 6 points. But I can almost see the rationale behind his comments. Not that I agreed or disagreed. Just an old man' way of looking at things.

And that makes no sense at all...

Actually to me it does. If you've just absolutely got to do it and you're going to shoot a non-mature buck, youre better off shooting a spike than that 2-3 yr old 6 or 8 point. That 2-3 yr old buck has already survived cars, neighbors, members, fights, ehd, coyotes, rut stress, etc, for 2-3 years and is well on his way into making it into the older "mature" age classes. You've got 2-3 years invested in him. If you kill a yearling spike, you've got virtually no time or nutrition invested in him and that yearling buck is easily replaced with the next year's crop of fawns whereas it will take you 2-3 years to have that same 6 or 8 point you shot, replaced with another similar buck of the same age if you are trying to grow and manage for older age class bucks. Wise old guy in my opinion.

Especially if you kill him before dispersal. Most young buck will leave their birth home range area, usually in the fall/early winter and if you can kill him before he leaves, you are not decreasing your buck population but someone else's.

That's a good reason, and was the reason for my comment above. The 1-1/2 YO bucks wandering your 1500 acres may not be "your" deer. They have been pushed out by mama but don't have a home yet. They may set up home 5 miles away next season. But if everyone starts shooting spikes, there are none left to wander onto your property to become 2-1/2 YO 6 points.

Just a thought...

We recently had a somewhat heated debate at the military base I hunt on about the "4 on one side" rule. That's been the requirement for the past few years (with NO other stipulations), and it has devolved into a full-on slaughter of every young buck with "4 on one side". I do not know the exact total harvest, but I'm thinking there were about 100 bucks killed this season (+,- 10), and of that total number I would bet my entire year's income there weren't 5 bucks over 110". This is a place that for the past 15 years has given up MULTIPLE 140" bucks every year (two over 160" the last 3 seasons). Just a general assumption, normally we'd kill maybe 25 to 40 bucks in the 120+" class, I don't think we had a single deer that big this time (maybe one). There is zero difference otherwise, no seasonal or habitat changes, nothing. Believe this or not, I didn't SEE nor even HEAR one single coyote this whole season.

Even though we sell roughly 250-300 licenses each year, in reality there's only about 75-100 hunters out there for most of the season (at any one time anyway). If there is a difference, it's that there's a substantial influx of new guys that started LAST YEAR (being out there as long as I have you become something of a brotherhood). You know everybody, we have an active Facebook page, etc. I will say we had a constant, and I mean constant, clash on the Facebook page about "Guys, cool it with killing all the piss-willy bucks!!!", then "By Golly, it's legal, so I'll kill whatever the @#$@# I want to!!!" If you think there's no repercussions to you "killing whatever you want to", you're dead wrong. Period. Not one single person I've talked to even reports to "secretly" seeing a "big" buck this year. They are NOT THERE.

By the way, this place has long been under Auburn University DMP. They do multiple deer studies each year, nighttime infrared trips, all sorts of stuff. The top 3 management tools are: trigger control, trigger control, trigger control. Nothing else matters. "4 points on one side" just assures your best young bucks get killed early.

Sounds like your buddies are "high grading" the herd, just like you can do with a timber tract. Cut all the white oaks and black walnuts and all you've got left is hackberries and hickories.