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Big timber not suitable for fawns
#2484911
05/16/18 06:37 PM
05/16/18 06:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,889 Mobile, AL
SouthBamaSlayer
OP
Gary's Fluffer
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OP
Gary's Fluffer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,889
Mobile, AL
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https://www.realtree.com/brow-tines...-timber-not-suitable-for-whitetail-fawnsFawns are much more likely to survive in areas with an abundance of early successional habitat. (Shutterstock/DCW Creations photo) The sun is shining. Trees are budding out. Flowers are blooming. On the surface, the timber seems like a tranquil place this time of year. But in reality, it’s a treacherous time to be a young white-tailed deer. Does are fawning, or soon will be. That means one thing — predators are keying on newborns. And sadly, less than half of fawns will live to see their first fall. Kentucky is the last state with a fawn recruitment rate higher than one fawn-per-doe. In some states (especially in the Deep South), fawn recruitment rates are as low as .25 or .30 fawns-per-doe. Translation — in some places, that means it’s taking three to four does just to raise one fawn to maturity. Think that doesn’t have both a short- and long-term effect on deer herds? Think again. Along with habitat destruction, that’s the primary reason deer numbers are declining across the country. And it all starts with the relation between quality cover and the fawn drop. Jeffery Mulhollem recently reported on a study conducted by Penn State and the Pennsylvania Game Commission where Tess. M. Gingery, Duane R. Diefenbach, Bret D. Wallingford and Christopher S. Rosenberry discovered that fawns in agricultural settings were much more likely to survive than fawns born in big timber landscapes. To reach this conclusion, they pulled data samples from four study areas in Pennsylvania and incorporated published data from 29 other deer populations across 16 states. The research showed that, in contiguous forested landscapes, the estimated average survival to six months of age is approximately 41 percent. However, there was a 5 percent increase in survival for every 10 percent increase in agricultural land area Interestingly, studies have shown that does oftentimes leave forested areas and seek out better fawning cover such as agricultural fields (corn, soybeans, etc.), CRP fields, very young timber, and other forms of early successional habitat. This is the type of plant life deer need to successfully raise fawns. It’s also no surprise this is where you generally find the bulk of the deer herd not only during fawning season but throughout the year also. Deer are edge animals and need edge cover to thrive. “The findings have management implications, because the results of the meta-analysis indicate that efforts to alter fawn survival to increase overall deer numbers will be challenging,” Mulhollem said. “Although predation is the largest source of mortality and occurred at the greatest rates, predator control efforts are difficult and often unsuccessful.” Diefenbach confirmed. "Managers looking to influence fawn mortality by increasing habitat diversity and maintaining a landscape structure with a mix of agriculture and forest may observe less fawn predation," he said. "However, reduced antlerless harvests may be more effective at achieving deer population objectives than attempts to manipulate the factors that influence fawn mortality." While black bear and bobcats contribute to fawn predation, coyotes are the bulk of the problem. If predator control is in the plans, it’s important to note that research shows hunting is not a suitable method of effectively reducing coyote populations. However, a strict trapping initiative leading up to and during the fawn drop is the only method that will effectively control coyote populations well enough to increase fawn recruitment rates. All in all, state agencies are already having to adjust bag limits due to the effects from predators. Many state agencies are enacting plans to help offset the number of fawns coyotes kill each spring and summer. If we don’t reign in this problem soon enough, both deer and deer hunting will suffer the consequences. The answer? Better habitat. And better predator control. Sadly, we’re losing on both fronts. We need the ability to trap coyotes year-round. In many states (including my home state of Kentucky), it’s illegal to trap coyotes in the spring and summer. That’s unacceptable. In a time when we should be doing everything we can to help the white-tailed deer, the last thing we need is bad policy preventing us from doing just that. The same goes for the threat to reduce the CRP program. CRP, CREP and similar programs provide even better fawning cover than agricultural settings do. The longevity of the white-tailed deer is directly linked to the longevity of these habitat programs, and habitat in general. It's time to do something about that.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2484914
05/16/18 06:39 PM
05/16/18 06:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440
Boxes Cove
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Chain saw is the best management tool in hardwoods.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: NightHunter]
#2484984
05/16/18 08:18 PM
05/16/18 08:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,760 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,760
Awbarn, AL
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Native warm season grasses seem like they would be key species for fawning cover.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2485150
05/17/18 06:22 AM
05/17/18 06:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 31,681 Slidell, La
perchjerker
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 31,681
Slidell, La
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Young Pine plantations are baby factories for deer. They provide cover and browse, fawns need the safety of undergrowth. Everytime I've seen yotes or dogs chasing fawns, its been in big woods.
Thomas Jefferson. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Life is too short to only hunt and fish on weekends!
If being a dumbass was fatal some of you would be on your death bed!
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2485370
05/17/18 11:29 AM
05/17/18 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,768 Fayetteville TN Via Selma
jawbone
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,768
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
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....And the winner of this years Captain Obvious award for the most useless waste of time and resources on an academic study goes to.......
Lord, please help us get our nation straightened out.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: jawbone]
#2485385
05/17/18 11:50 AM
05/17/18 11:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 30,910 Clanton, AL
Out back
Grumpy Old Man
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Grumpy Old Man
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 30,910
Clanton, AL
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....And the winner of this years Captain Obvious award for the most useless waste of time and resources on an academic study goes to....... Actually, there's one even more worthy of that title. The National Science Foundation gave a million dollar grant to Cornell University -- for which researcher Michael Smith had a bee sting him roughly 200 times on 25 parts of his body and rated how much it hurt. His penis was rated #1 most painful. I think we could have all predicted that without the million dollars.
My opinions and comments are my own. They do not reflect the position or political opinions of Aldeer or any of the Aldeer administration.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2485810
05/18/18 01:36 AM
05/18/18 01:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 31,681 Slidell, La
perchjerker
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 31,681
Slidell, La
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I used to rave about beautiful big woods. Face it after the acorns are gone, they are mostly barrel of any food for deer. They are only travel routes. CRP, pine plantations and swamps are where deer thrive. If you doubt this, start watching how many big bucks have muddy legs.
Thomas Jefferson. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Life is too short to only hunt and fish on weekends!
If being a dumbass was fatal some of you would be on your death bed!
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: perchjerker]
#2485908
05/18/18 07:28 AM
05/18/18 07:28 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440
Boxes Cove
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I used to rave about beautiful big woods. Face it after the acorns are gone, they are mostly barrel of any food for deer. They are only travel routes. CRP, pine plantations and swamps are where deer thrive. If you doubt this, start watching how many big bucks have muddy legs. You have to open up the canopy in mature hardwoods. A hardwood clear cut is deer heaven for browse and cover. You can burn every 2-3 years and it's like a fresh cut.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: 2Dogs]
#2486406
05/18/18 03:20 PM
05/18/18 03:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780 central ala,
centralala
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
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I used to rave about beautiful big woods. Face it after the acorns are gone, they are mostly barrel of any food for deer. They are only travel routes. CRP, pine plantations and swamps are where deer thrive. If you doubt this, start watching how many big bucks have muddy legs. You have to open up the canopy in mature hardwoods. A hardwood clear cut is deer heaven for browse and cover. You can burn every 2-3 years and it's like a fresh cut. Obviously, me and you have a different definition of "clear cut." Opening the canopy for me is only taking out " x" amount of trees and leaving the rest. I call that a select cut. Done in pines I just call it a thinning. I call a clear cut when no trees are left. My clear cuts dang sure has an open canopy. Have to watch the loggers closely on a select cut. They will "high grade.". That's taking out the best trees leaving less quality trees. I want junk gone first letting the best quality to thrive.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: centralala]
#2486466
05/18/18 04:34 PM
05/18/18 04:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440
Boxes Cove
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I used to rave about beautiful big woods. Face it after the acorns are gone, they are mostly barrel of any food for deer. They are only travel routes. CRP, pine plantations and swamps are where deer thrive. If you doubt this, start watching how many big bucks have muddy legs. You have to open up the canopy in mature hardwoods. A hardwood clear cut is deer heaven for browse and cover. You can burn every 2-3 years and it's like a fresh cut. Obviously, me and you have a different definition of "clear cut." Opening the canopy for me is only taking out " x" amount of trees and leaving the rest. I call that a select cut. Done in pines I just call it a thinning. I call a clear cut when no trees are left. My clear cuts dang sure has an open canopy. Have to watch the loggers closely on a select cut. They will "high grade.". That's taking out the best trees leaving less quality trees. I want junk gone first letting the best quality to thrive. Hardwood clear cut is normally all merchantable timber in our area, saw timber and pulp. Nothing much left. Even select cutting will open the canopy in small areas , plus skidding logs disturbs the soil. Also what and how a site is cut up here usually depends on which side of the mountain it's growing or if it's on top of the plateau . LA pine and mountain hardwood two very different animals .
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2486605
05/18/18 08:15 PM
05/18/18 08:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780 central ala,
centralala
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,780
central ala,
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It was common to cut all pines out leaving just hardwood. Not so much anymore even though I looked at one tract 2 days ago with another guy that wanted to do just that. Only problem was there were very few pines. Also, here our better hardwoods will be higher up the hills go. Hill tops have more solid trees were bottom land have much more hollow trees. In the bottoms hold more moisture therefor vegetation such as briars and honeysuckle grow better. So it's the best of both worlds here, open the hard wood canopy in the bottoms with the less valuable trees, get better vegetation growth, and let better quality trees grow on the hills. In the perfect world for here, that going to provide food and cover for all ages of deer.
Pines is a whole different animal. I hear all the time back and forth about deer and pines, good vs. bad. But what I NEVER hear discussed is that pine needles cause the soil to be much more acidic. Do you lime food plots? Why? The vegetation in these South Alabama pines can produce the cover for the fawns but unless you're liming the pine plantations, the vegetation produced just isn't going to reach its potential. We have to do the best we can but for me if i only had two tools available in pines it would be fire and a coyote trapper. Then I feel fawn survival would not be a concern.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: centralala]
#2486797
05/19/18 06:51 AM
05/19/18 06:51 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440
Boxes Cove
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It was common to cut all pines out leaving just hardwood. Not so much anymore even though I looked at one tract 2 days ago with another guy that wanted to do just that. Only problem was there were very few pines. Also, here our better hardwoods will be higher up the hills go. Hill tops have more solid trees were bottom land have much more hollow trees. In the bottoms hold more moisture therefor vegetation such as briars and honeysuckle grow better. So it's the best of both worlds here, open the hard wood canopy in the bottoms with the less valuable trees, get better vegetation growth, and let better quality trees grow on the hills. In the perfect world for here, that going to provide food and cover for all ages of deer.
Pines is a whole different animal. I hear all the time back and forth about deer and pines, good vs. bad. But what I NEVER hear discussed is that pine needles cause the soil to be much more acidic. Do you lime food plots? Why? The vegetation in these South Alabama pines can produce the cover for the fawns but unless you're liming the pine plantations, the vegetation produced just isn't going to reach its potential. We have to do the best we can but for me if i only had two tools available in pines it would be fire and a coyote trapper. Then I feel fawn survival would not be a concern.
I know this discussion is about cover, but oaks have total acorn failure some years . Therefor you can't rely on acorns only in large acreage, mature hardwoods as a stable , year in year out food source. That's another reason to open the canopy and do some checker boarding on a rotating basis on large hardwood tracts. Opening the canopy in hardwoods creates both cover and browse. It also makes for better hunting, the last place to kill a mature buck in our area is big , mature hardwoods. Also since we had some of our timber cut in 05-06 we've have never had a total acorn failure. Releasing the smaller and midsized oaks apparently allows them to produce more consistently year to year. Be time to cut some more soon.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2486963
05/19/18 12:58 PM
05/19/18 12:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,188 South Alabama
gobbler
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,188
South Alabama
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Pines is a whole different animal. I hear all the time back and forth about deer and pines, good vs. bad. But what I NEVER hear discussed is that pine needles cause the soil to be much more acidic. Do you lime food plots? Why? The vegetation in these South Alabama pines can produce the cover for the fawns but unless you're liming the pine plantations, the vegetation produced just isn't going to reach its potential. We have to do the best we can but for me if i only had two tools available in pines it would be fire and a coyote trapper. Then I feel fawn survival would not be a concern. ALL of the high quality native plants are adapted to acid soils in Alabama and do great without soil amendments - thats the beauty of them, just treat em right and they will come. Hardwoods There, I fixed it for you. I read the study dissing big hardwoods, not pines ....And the winner of this years Captain Obvious award for the most useless waste of time and resources on an academic study goes to....... It is obvious on the beautiful place you hunt but NOT for the majority of deer hunters! As you know I have been preaching Early Successional Habitat for years!! Most hunters don't know what ESH is, nor how to create it. I fight it all the time - folks love to see big, shady hardwoods and "thick stuff", two things I try to "uncreate" Also, I read the study not talking about "Big timber" but too much timber. Size doesn't matter much if you concentrate on getting sunlight through the canopy regardless of the size of the trees or canopy, nor species.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2486969
05/19/18 01:07 PM
05/19/18 01:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 42,110 UR 6
top cat
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 42,110
UR 6
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We are blessed to have both. Along with a river, swamp, big ponds and mountains.
LUCK:::; When presistence, dedication, perspiration and preparation meet up with opportunity!!! - - - - - - - -A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have. Thomas Jeferson - - - - - - - -
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Re: Big timber not suitable for fawns
[Re: SouthBamaSlayer]
#2486974
05/19/18 01:12 PM
05/19/18 01:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440 Boxes Cove
2Dogs
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 34,440
Boxes Cove
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Well yeah Gobbler, the two states mentioned are hardwood states , I doubt there's enough pine in the both of them to do a study. That's why I said a chain saw is the best tool in hardwood management , gotta open up the canopy and such. The " pine " post was aimed at folks posting talking about pines. I recon folks in LA pine country think that's the only species of tree on the planet.
Last edited by 2Dogs; 05/19/18 04:58 PM.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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