I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The population of wild turkey decreased in the entire county.

Our place was clearcut in 1977 and by 1984 we had given up turkey hunting on the place. Not only was our place cut, but nearly all the land around us was cut. There just weren't any turkeys there in the spring. There were turkeys a few miles down the road, but we didn't have any.

By 1990 they had returned, and we've had turkeys ever since. As soon as the pines shaded the ground enough to make it reasonably clean under them, the turkeys started back using them. Since then, population hasn't varied a whole lot from year to year.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought the change to pines had no impact on turkeys; it certainly does. My point was that lots of smart people thought turkeys could not survive without big hardwoods forests for the winter. I thought that myself.

Turkeys proved us wrong.

I rode up on a very recently deceased mature gobbler on our property in Dallas county this spring. I had just taken a nice bird and was riding out on the golf cart. I laughed at first because I figured the bird saw me coming and died of a heart attack because I'm such a feared turkey killer.... but seriously.

He was belly down, wings out, with his head laid down. No signs of a struggle, no visible shot in his head or body. Not a scratch on him.

I carried him to the biologist and here was the result of the autopsy:

"The turkey died from Listeriosis, which is an infection from the bacteria Listeria monocytogenes. Is the property you hunt adjacent to any large cattle operations? Listeria monocytogenes occurs throughout the environment, but is very common in improperly stored silage. That may be where the turkey picked it up."

This thread got me thinking, could this tom have eaten corn from and old piled up, wet corn pile some one had some where?

FYI - I don't supplement feed at all, just plant wisely.

If timber companies did controlled burns on their big holdings, we would be shocked at the turkeys that would be on these pine tracts. God designed a pine forest to be burned. I know that most big landholders are now afraid to burn because of potential lawsuits (and who could blame them?). I suspect the fuel load is now so high on a lot of the timber company lands that controlled burns are no longer feasible.

Also, the state wildlife agency is publishing population figures around 400,000+ birds. That's on par with MO and ahead of just about everybody else. I understand that this is not a true census but an estimate based on hatches and terrain types. But, being new to the state, this population estimate was one selling point in my decision to take a job here. Despite cyclical ups and downs, the turkey population is in much better shape here than in MS (where I came from) and I am counting the days until next March.

I would like to know how they diagnosed the Listeriosis. That is a pretty rare diagnosis for birds. It wouldn't be uncommon for them to be carrying it but rare for it to make them sick.

I wouldn't say it is impossible but I would not highly suspect to get Listeriosis from eating out of a corn pile.

The bird was sent to SCWDS for necropsy, like I've already stated we do for all diseased birds.

Still unusual but if SCWDS said it, I believe it. They do good work.

Have turkey proved they can live around cattle farms, poultry production, landscapes in the Midwest and farther west with very few trees, not to mention shrub country in Texas - the answer to all of these are obviously yes - yes they can.

But the easterns we love and hunt here in this state prefer large landscapes of timber. Is a pine plantation at certain ages and stages ideal - of course not - and I've never said that. Is pine managed land perfect - no. Is it proven - YES.

We just let emotions get in the way and want to hunt beautiful, natural mixed pine hardwood stands. But a lot are gone, and will not be back.

We have these large landscapes of pine management in a lot of areas of the state. And like I stated - they are proven to sustain very huntable populations. And more turkey will be harvested in the pine belt every season than in some beautiful areas of North AL. It must promote people (hunters / biologists) who care about the future of turkey to stop and think why all those publications and studies about ideal habitat were wrong. Grasp that and move forward.

I know absolutely nothing about turkey habitat but I can say our 1k acre pine plantation in Monroe co. hold a good number of birds. We've been hunting turkeys on our place for 3 seasons now and I can't recall a hunt where we didnt hear multiple birds gobbling. Now we know not much more about hunting these birds than we do about habitat. But I figure for my brother and I to kill 4 gobblers in 3 yrs is a major accomplishment and think its because we have a good number of birds. I don't know why our place holds birds like it does, but our nieghbor and old member of the club that had the place before us tells me it always had lots of birds. It may be lack of hunting pressure or landscape is why they are there. Whatever it is I hope nothing changes because I love hearing them birds gobble and getting my tail handed to me over and over again.

I drive across the old Fort McClellan every day on my commute, and a few weeks ago I started seeing a hen with chicks just about every morning in the same place. I've also seen several hens with NO chicks, and I think that's odd, but back to my point... I saw her with 8 teeny tiny little poults the first time in a grassy spot next to a building. I haven't counted each time, but I noticed two mornings in a row she only had 3 (about twice the size they originally were). Granted, I'm assuming this is the same bird, but odds seem likely. She has been alone every morning for the past two weeks roughly.
Another hen was on the hillside behind the Ft McClellan Lowes (locals will know about these birds) and one time she had a BUNCH of little babies running around. I haven't seen another baby there in weeks now, but I see hens there just about every day.
Something is killing those babies.

I lived in Anniston for 4 yrs back in the late 90's. Drove around McClelland a good bit. Seems I remember seeing a good number of hawks. Are you seeing any hawks in those areas?

It is funny that weather was only mentioned in only this one post but it is the MOST important driver of nest and poult success there is - and the only one we have NO control over. I tend to agree here as well as with Troy. The last dry spring/summer we have had (good nesting and poult production) was 2007 and it was an EXCELLENT hatch in central/south AL. I have clients (in several central al counties) that will tell you they have never had more turkeys than they do now and it is mostly due to intensive predator control, despite moist/poor nesting seasons. SO... In MY order of importance - 1) spring weather, 2) nest predators, 3) everything else as a small percentage contribution. This is for the State as a whole. Habitat plays an extremely important part but turkeys are adaptable to a variety of habitat types, especially if it is broken up and diverse. I agree with Troy that corn has NOTHING to do with any actual or perceived decline. I think Corky used the increase in baiting in AL as a tool to get his point across which was deceitful at best.

BTW, the idea that the State bios don't care is a pretty poor theory. As Biologists, we all dedicated our careers, education and money to this field. The problem is they have no more control over Statewide populations than anyone else. You can't control weather, pretty much can't control predator populations across the State as a whole, so all that is left is trying to help landowners learn how to manage correctly and control habitat and predators on small pieces of the State. They DO have control of seasons and limits but turkey populations in AL are NOT impacted by our current season and bag structure so that tool will have NO impact on population densities regardless of what some will say! Just MHO

To start with I have not read all the post, just skipped around. I agree with gobbler and Fred. Corn is not the issue. TX feeds who knows how many tons of corn every year and they are still covered up with turkeys. I also agree that it is largely due to weather. Around 2005-2007 where I hunted was covered up with turkeys, killed my limit every year and helped folks kill a few of theirs, as well. Then we had a few cold wet springs and all around pissy weather for turkeys to nest. Guess what happened over then next few years? Ruff turkey hunting. The only birds that where being killed were 4-5 year olds, and not a lot of them. All the jakes, two and three year olds had all but died over the last three years. Then guess what happened? You got it, good weather and the turkey population was back on the rise. Where I hunt now in north Bama we have more turkeys now than we have EVER had.This year seems to be about average for young turkeys. With all that being said a turkey population can go from low numbers to great numbers in just 2-3 years. It depends on the weather. Also there use to be many, many, many more trappers than there are now days. If we saw coon hides start bringing $20-25 per hide like they once did I bet the turkey population would sky rocket. Example: I have been hunting in MO for 15v years or more now. When we first started hunting up there it was nothing to see 40-50 bird flocks. One afternoon I saw over 150 birds cross the filed I was hunting going to roost. At that time you were not allowed to kill bobcats. Over the next few years the bobcat population went through the roof, as well as, the coyote population! We were seeing a lot of cats! Guess what happened next? You got it the turkey population hit rock bottom. I was lucky if I saw 5-6 birds in a flock. They would fly and land out in the middle of those big fields, feed and look scared all day. I even saw bald eagles after them(lot of eagles up there as well). One would fly over and all the turkeys would hit the cedars where all the bobcats are. We cant control the weather but we can "help" control the predators. Oh by the way all those fields(and I am talking thousands and thousand of acears) have always been covered in corn, when the p population was up or down. When the state of MO started letting folks start trapping bobcats the turkey population started to climb again plus there has been better weather in the spring for the last few years. So boys start trapping or coon hunting with hounds and pray for good weather in the spring. Not a expert just some things I have paid attention to over the years. Carry on its time for bed.

In Texas, it is the feral hog population that wipes out the turkey population. Feral hogs will destroy almost 100% of the nests eating the eggs. We hunted a ranch for 33 years. In years 1 - 25, we never had a problem filling our tags. Year 26, the first feral hog was killed. By year 30, zero turkey sightings.

I agree with you but nothing never has just a magically huge impact of any kind. Something that causes a species to decline doesn't just happen, it happens loooooong in advance and slowly eats away when you don't know then boom it shows up. I def. Think logging plays the evil role here.

There is supporting evidence from some states that is suggesting the beginning of season is too early, resulting in the death of a lot of gobblers early, and shifting or shortening season has shown to help.

You've got to understand this is not an AL problem. It's an eastern wild turkey problem across their entire southern range. Weather IMO has not caused a decade long trend of decreasing production and recruitment from TX to Virginia. Some states harvest has declined over 50% from a few years ago. Poult production has decreased to less than 1.5 poults/hen in much of their range from TX to Virginia. It wasn't the result of a couple of bad hatches. Turkey license sales and turkey hunters have increased 100% over the last 12-15 years in most states, yet the seasons and bags have not changed. East TX is currently taking turkeys for restocking efforts. OK easterns are not doing well at all. AR got so bad they now have a two week season. SC shifted seasons and reduced the bag to 3. This is a real problem and there will probably be changes to the way we do things in the future.

It's not corn.

Matt, I remember "in the old days" the beginnings of a spring season, it was supposed to be set up so that most of the breeding had taken place BEFORE hunting season started. The move over time has been to open the season earlier and earlier so now we are looking at early March openings and any half baked biologist will tell you that breeding is NOT done by early March.

I personally suspect that loss of turkey numbers is due to a number of things including increase of nest predators(coon, fox, possum), increase in number of turkey hunters, restructuring of traditional turkey habitats to less ideal habitats.

Troy, sadly that has been suggested by the wildlife staff for decades but wasnt taken seriously.

Matt, can you explain, biologically, how starting the season later in AL (@ 45 day season where people are killing their 4th and 5th turkeys at the END of season) would help poult/hen ratios or make nesting more successful? Haven't we established that it is a poult production issue, secondarily associated with habitat or predators possibly and NOT a lack of gobblers EARLY in the season?

All the 4th and 5th turkeys aren't killed at the end of season.