I always start with #5 and count down until there are none left.

With 80, maybe 90% of the hunters in the State NOT killing their limit, the few that do kill a limit, kill them at the end of the season. When would you suggest that the 4th and 5th are killed? Do you do as Yekrut suggests and count backward?

No, we have not established that. It is a poult production issue, but the same general trends are being recorded on very large managed tracts with active predator control programs and stellar habitat, just the same as other places. New nest site selection information coming out of some studies is highly suggestive that habitat is not as big of an issue. Hens are not selecting the best habitat available to nest. They also aren't putting a lot of forethought into it. They're not visiting their nest sites until the day of, or couple of days prior to nest site selection. Most state seasons have shifted earlier because of public pressure, and ignored the science. We know from several studies when nest initiation begins in AL, and season has already been open for nearly three weeks when that time takes place. If you are wondering why north AL counties have an April 1 opener, it is because there are decades of data collection that showed the population would drastically decrease quickly, and not recover when season was opened up in the month of March. It has been tried several times, and always resulting in season closures. As soon as the population recovered, and April season initiated, the populations remained stable. It's a timing issue. It's not about people killing 4-5 turkeys. It's about the majority of turkeys being killed at a time in which hens have not even initiated a nest. Who cares if you kill male turkeys after hens are nesting? It doesn't matter. Some breeding takes place in February and March, and has been documented. Evidence is becoming more clear to me, and every other turkey biologist in the south, that we are probably killing male turkeys too early in a lot of places.

AR backed up season and limited it to 2 weeks in 2012 and their gobbler harvest, population densities, poult production, and hunter satisfaction has increased since.

>>>This is a real problem and there will probably be changes to the way we do things in the future.<<<

There ain't no "probably" to it. The women that run the nwtf have decided that the AL limit and season is politically incorrect and has to go. And it will.

Forget it gobbler - nobody is gonna listen to you on this one. Can't you see the same Formula in place as it was for the deer? Start convincing people there is a problem, appoint a study committee, talk about it, then slash the limit and make people like it. You helped pioneer the Formula, so now we gotta live with it.

Actually though, I could buy the idea that the season opens too early in places and has some detriment to the population. A study might show evidence of that, but I would question some of the conclusions I'm reading. I think the problem is far more likely the effect it has on the hens instead of a shortage of gobblers, and also its more likely a north AL issue. With a bunch of 40 acre tracts, the turkeys get harassed and the flocks broken apart every single day no matter where they go. I could see that changing hen behavior. Put in a later and shorter season in those places if that is happening. In south AL, most people take care to make sure their turkey flocks don't get broken apart every day. I try my very best to make sure that the turkeys never know I'm in the woods unless I shoot one, and that's the approach most hunters take on the larger tracts of land in central and south AL. Its 2 different worlds, but I can see one solution coming.

I remember reading something Lovett Williams wrote about season timing - he said that a later season was more harmful to the flock than an earlier season. Hunters disturbing hens on the nest was far more detrimental than killing some of the gobblers before the breeding takes place. But I guess he didn't really know anything.

Its really interesting how the dcnr had changed their message over the years. I remember going to some kind of meeting with my dad back in the 60s where Charles Kelley spoke. I remember how much he emphasized that AL wanted generous seasons and limits on deer and turkeys so that the landowners would have the incentive to protect them and manage their land for them. Other states took the opposite approach and were years behind us in restoring populations. Of course, north AL was years behind the rest of AL as well. I heard that same message over and over from all the dept personnel that I ever heard speak publicly. That message is sure gone now.

I picked a good time to get old.

They could show me 50 years and $50MIL dollars worth of studies and never convince me that hunters are any part of the problem whatsoever. The bag limits and season dates have been the same as long as I've turkey hunted (since the mid 80's). I never saw any change in turkey behavior or numbers UNTIL I saw a change in coyotes and armadillos. As I progressively began to see more of those two animals, I coincidingly saw progressively less turkeys. The weather isn't different, the woods aren't any different (where I live), nothing else is different. It is coyotes (and possibly armadillos) period. As long as our state pretends that coyotes aren't a problem (wasting time doing dumb-butt studies), it will ultimately ruin our resource.

On studies in the south hunters are the leading cause of mortality on gobblers, backed up by proof because they were wearing gps transmitters or radio transmitters. Those are facts. Some areas it exceeds 70% mortality. Predators make up far less mortality on adult birds.

PCP, it's not just a north AL issue. The same is happening in central and south AL.

I sure haven't seen it nor have the majority of my local buddies who hunt. Judging by the poults I've seen the last couple of weeks, it appears last year was a nice hatch as well.

I will join Crenshaw, Turkeymaster, gobbler and the many others on here who say they haven't seen it on the places they hunt. I participated in the poult survey and reported what I saw, which was a lot. I realize that's just anecdotal info, but I hunt in 3 counties and we have as many as ever. I saw 3 different groups last weekend and wasn't even looking for them.

The Hunter Survey doesn't show any downward trend; how have you decided that the population has declined in south and central AL? I thought it was the most scientific instrument you have; is that wrong?

By the way, thanks for posting on here and letting us know what's going on.

>>>On studies in the south hunters are the leading cause of mortality on gobblers, backed up by proof because they were wearing gps transmitters or radio transmitters. Those are facts. Some areas it exceeds 70% mortality. Predators make up far less mortality on adult birds.<<<

I don't doubt that at all. Once a gobbler is a year old, there aren't many things likely to catch him. What I do doubt is that the gobbler harvest has anything at all to do with the overall turkey population in the areas I hunt.

I'm still thinking there is an MSU professor that teaches students that gobblers sit on the eggs and help raise the poults.

I agree, S AL isn't showing a problem to me. I get to hunt way too many places, see way too many birds die and hear way too many gobblers every spring to think S AL has a problem. anywhere you get to watch 10-15 birds die a year in one part of the state and there be just that many more to hunt the next year doesn't sound like it has a population problem to me.

I drove into a large tract of land managed by my company Monday morning (northern fringe of SW Bama pine belt). Most would not like the way it looks in regards to turkey habitat and hunting. Some turkey purists would scoff at the tract and refuse to hunt it. I ran 4 different groups of turkey, of all combinations and flavors, out of the main haul road in about a 1 mile stretch. You could ride all day through some parts of North AL and never do that.

Any change of any kind will have to be zoned. No pretending otherwise.

And I'll add this. It's past time to ask the question why turkey can sustain numbers in habitat perceived as less than ideal in South AL, but can't in places that fit every publication of ideal turkey habitat in North AL.

I believe it's time to question the old thought of ideal habitat. I've said it before and the only person here that picked up on it was PCP. He may not be the only one to give it thought - but the thread just moved on.

I picked up on it because I realized long ago that what I was taught in school was wrong - turkeys don't require vast hardwood forests to survive. They sure do better if they have some hardwoods, but chufas can replace the hardwoods in places that don't have them. A place with different ages of pine plantations and 5% of the land in chufas could produce a huge population of turkeys.

From what little I know about north AL, I don't think its fair to compare their Ag to the midwest Ag. KS has vast areas of rough land that isn't farmed, yet doesn't have many trees and is ideal nesting habitat. I don't see that driving thru north AL.

Well, i guess, i'm lucky because i haven't seen a decline in turkey numbers, where i hunt.

I thought we already settled this????

it's PCPs avatars fault.....

It used to be that states tried to start the season when the majority of the hens have started setting on their clutch.

But hunters can't stand not to be hunting once they start gobbling. And most don't like the end of the season because they quit hearing the gobbling. They don't take into consideration the effect killing most of the eager gobblers has on gobbling and hunting success as the season goes on. Nor do they consider the effect hunter activity has on the birds' habits. And those effects happen no matter when yo open the season.

In NC we are constantly dealing with the pressure to open the season earlier, though the biologists warn against it.

I agree with you that in many states the season is open too early.

I thought you were going to get there then you drifted off Not picking on you but you are the only one on here that I can debate this with! I got a couple citations from you a while back and read them but it still did not explain to me how this would work in Alabama. We have different land base, seasons, and turkey populations than other states. None of the studies I have read have shown me conclusive evidence (nor compelling in my mind) that lower poult production is a function of earlier season openers. I don't see how moving the season starter later will make poult production higher - I must be missing something and must be the one Biologist in the south that this is NOT clear to!

I also worry about the quality of data that our research set up here in AL will yield. All public land? A high quality population model being the end result?

And I really do appreciate your willingness to engage in an internet debate!



I hate to say it but your right! Reaping what you sow and all that

I'll debate later. I'm tired. Not dodging the bullet. Just flat out tired.

Let me be the one to stand up for North Alabama here....

Have we ever had the numbers South Alabama has? Nope.


Are there turkeys up here? Why yes, there are. Despite what appears to be popular belief.

If you can kill em here, you can kill em anywhere. 40 acre tracts and all (sorry Preacher).



Couple of other things:

1) no, corn isn't to blame.

2) Matt freaking Brock himself don't want to lower the bag limit on nothing. Yall bear that in mind.


Barber, proceed.

But Matt, other than the obvious answer, how much does that affect the overall population in reality? True, hunters would likely be the top killer of adult gobblers, but turkeys reproduce so prolifically that those gobblers should be replenished from year to year. I simply don't see as many turkeys period anymore...no big droves of hens, very few hens with successful broods, far less gobblers heard now than years before. For some reason either hens are getting killed, or poults aren't making it to adulthood. Am I right?