Matt. If adult gobbler harvest makes such a difference to the population, what do YOU think would happen to our turkey population if we went to a 6 bird, 7 bird, or 10 bird limit in Alabama. I would guess very little, but that is pure speculation. What would happen in KS?, I would guess they would suffer pretty bad the first year or 2 and gobbling would be effected for a couple years but the OVERALL POPULATION would not go down significantly because the hens would all be bred and continue to produce poults. Gobblers would eventually wise up and become as hard to hunt as AL birds and the State would try to put a new limit on them.

The reason hunting damaged populations in the past was because of shooting over bait, flock shooting and indiscriminate killing of hens poults, jakes and gobblers during Spring, summer, fall and winter. Not the regulated seasons we have now.



That is NOT the perception that the limit gives. Its called a limit because it gives the perception that there is and should be a limit. It gives the perception that we should limit our harvest to 5 because..... um, well, Im not sure why but Charles Kelly and Corky thought it was a good idea to reduce it from 6.

Trying to equate it to a daily limit of a buck a day is a weak argument. However, the older I get the more I agree with 49r and Corky on limits.

About time you joined in, gobbler! If you just sit back and watch, you are gonna wake up one day and find we have a one bird limit and you have to enter a lottery to see which 5 days you can hunt.

Ain't it amazing how easily you can tell the MSU grads from the AU grads in these threads? Wonder why that is? You got any theories?

Its so easy for someone to sit at there desk and assume this and that on how many turkeys they are and make up 100% fake facts about turkeys/deer.

PCP you are right.

Dont have the answers to the questions asked,, but i hunt south bama national forest and the last 3 seasons have been awesome for hearing numbers of gobblers and for how many jakes and hens im seeing throughout the broad area i hunt.. This year definitely being one of the better for jake numbers and adult gobblers being heard and taken.. And I can promise there is no shortage of hunters here.. And still having a 5 bird limit.. I can honestly say through my observations that we have definitely had great hatches the last 2 years with turkey numbers up more than 10 years ago.. Dont care what any biologist says about this area.. This is from my own footwork and observations..and i put in ALOT OF TIME on the national forest

I can have a good debate with people who disagree with me biologically but this strikes a nerve. You obviously have no idea what biologists do. Nobody in this thread sits behind a desk and guesses anything or makes up 100% fake facts. I spend way more time in the field than in an air conditioned room. And scientific formulas and statistics developed in an air conditioned room are factual when real data collected in the field is used.


Gobbler, I'm not trying to say we are hunting turkeys back to being extirpated like the unregulated periods. That would be pretty foolish thinking, and it's not going to happen. Like I told PCP, my liking the turkey limit to the deer is ONLY an example of something the state did that wasn't the best for the resource. I hope y'all all know I'm competent enough to understand managing deer and turkey is not even remotely similar. Their biology, breeding, and behavior are very different.

For both PCP and Gobbler, what would you think if AU(not MSState), since you like throwing that in there, provided a scenario through a mathematical formula that included season lengths, different bags, real hunter mortality, real poult recruitment, real incidental hen harvest, real natural mortality, real hunter satisfaction, and predicted the population growth or decline over decades for each scenario, AND the results that were scientifically predicted suggested that a change in bag limits or season structure was needed? I throw in the term real data, meaning it was collected in AL by real hunters and biologists who spend time in the real world. (Bankhead that's for you).

Now what if the data suggested no change was needed? Yay!!

For some reason y'all have the idea that the state wants to reduce the limit. I'm not sure where y'all have concluded that. We are only conducting the research to see IF it makes a difference and is needed. I've already said I'm for killing as many as possible if it's sustainable. I'm only asking questions that need to be asked, and doing the research answers them.

Gobbler you do understand I hope, of all people, that what occurs in central and south AL is not what occurs in north AL. Do you see TN or North Carolina opening up there seasons in March?

Mitchell Marks, who recently retired, had data for several north AL counties for decades on the changes in season timing and the result to the turkey populations. Each time season was opened in the month of March, the result was an immediate drop in population, to the point of shutting seasons down for years to allow recovery. It was a direct result of season length and timing. People were over harvesting gobblers while they were still in winter flocks. Since the season has been pushed back to April we haven't seen that problem. Hopefully we will get some breeding data for north AL soon and we will know when the peak breeding times are up here. I'm assuming now it's not what you're seeing down there.

Also, since the state agency has been given the task of managing the resource for the benefit of all users, what if a majority of hunters were in favor of a reduced bag? I've talked to far more in north AL that are in favor than the opposite. That is a fact. I've also talked to more in south AL who are opposed. So there are regional differences.

Gobbler, I have all the papers saved on my agency computer which is not with me right now. Even if it was I'm not going to spend all day pasting PDF papers on ALdeer. I ain't got time for that.

So if that data was so clear, why do we not have split seasons already? If Mitchell was/is so respected for his turkey work and the info/data clearly shows something so biologically detrimental that the population was affected by a mid-March opening, then WTH?

Someone in DCNR blunted efforts to change this to the biological benefit of the birds and hunters? Someone didn't want to hear it and wanted to just keep status quo? If Mitchell's info was so clear cut then that's not conjecture or hyperbole or anecdotal, right?

Clem, we do have split seasons.

Well, of course we do. Duh. That was about as big of a major league brain fart as I've had in a long time.

It's ok. It is Monday.

I also just made a pot of coffee and forgot to put the carafe under the dripper, then walked outside. Came in to find six cups of coffee spreading along the kitchen counter.

Apparently I need to shut myself up in a rubber room today.

I hunt pretty hard, not like some of the guys on here but average 3-4 days a week. This season has been rough on me. I have yet to work a bird on the ground gobbling. I have only killed one and he came in silent but full sprint across a pasture. I hear a few birds in the morning on roost and then they shut up. One spot is only 200 acres in the middle of 5k acres in Tusc and Greene county with only 3 guys hunting the 5k acres. The most birds I have heard gobbling on my property and theirs is 3 at one time. Thats messed up. I have more land in Perry county that I am the only guy that hunts and I have not heard a single bird gobble even though I have pictures of strutters in the fields.

I Have never killed more than 3 birds in Alabama. Just because the former club I was in that was the rule and I just carried it over with me everywhere else. I will call birds for other people, but I wouldn't mind at all if the limit got changed to 3-4 birds.

I just know it should get interesting if the same thing happens next yr too.

Gobbler, I found time for you.

Greater illegal hen mortality has been associated with earlier opening dates (Normal et al. 2001), and substantial illegal hen mortality has occurred in areas when spring turkey season coincided with peak breeding (Kimmel and Kurzejeski 1985).

Other studies have shown considerable hen mortality as it relates to earlier opening dates (Wright and Speake 1975, Williams and Austin 1988, Davis et all 1995).

Mean nest incubation initiation is April 20-30 for south and central Al and as late as May 1-7 for north Al (Whitaker 2013). Meaning laying began approximately two weeks earlier.

On Thomas WMA in 1980, Everett determined average hatch as May 22-28, and ranged from May 1-June 24.

Peak gobbling periods in Clarke Co as determined by Davis in 1977 were April 5 and April 25. If peak gobbling coincides with breakup of winter flocks (first peak) and nest initiation (second), and that occurs in early April and late April in south AL, then it is certainly later in north AL.

Gardner found that the earliest hatch date was May 6 and 80% of poults hatched the last three weeks of may.

Metzler found that in North AL peak hatch occurred the first week of June.

I can go on and on and on.

According to SEAFWA, they claim several researchers have found that opening of spring season prior to initiation of nesting can lead to reduced recruitment through direct mortality of female wild turkeys.

Also, intensive male turkey harvest during spring could result in decreased recruitment if it occurs prior to nest initiation and has resulted in low male turkey abundance or disturbed breeding activity.

How's that Bankhead? Am I just making facts up in an office, because you know that's what all biologist do right?

Go read Chamberlains Effects of Variable Spring Harvest Regimes on Annual Survival and Recovery Rates of Male Wild Turkeys in Southeast Louisiana, 2012.

Seems like to me people would be glad to have a state agency that's trying to lead in efforts of sound management, and get on top of a problem to correct it instead of falling behind and hitting the panic button once something catastrophic happens. Facts are that a lot of areas are experiencing a decline and poult recruitment is low and getting lower. Trying to figure out why and what to do about it is what we do.

Another observation of mine is the ones who seem to have the biggest problem with change are the ones happily killing their limit each season, not experiencing a decline, and are determined to do it their way regardless of what the research indicates, and with no regard for the resource.

I have hunted the same land (Mobile County) for several years. We have roughly 300 acres with a mix of dairy pastures and creek bottoms on 3 of 4 sides. Here is what I have witnessed:

•As recently as 3 years ago, it was not uncommon to see winter flocks of over 100 birds on any given day of deer season.

•Last year, the largest winter flock I saw had 30-40 birds in it.

•This year, the most seen at one time was around a dozen.

•3 years ago, I would stand on a hilltop next to a pasture and hear gobbling every time I went. They may not be on us, but I heard birds.

•Last year in those same spots I heard occasional gobbling.

•This year I heard a total of 1 bird gobble, and he was not gobbling on his own. I saw him in the pasture, called to him, and was able to get a response gobble out of him. He died that day.

Thanks for the info, Matt.