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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: Yelp softly]
#1313334
03/30/15 03:03 AM
03/30/15 03:03 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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CNC, you're welcome to borrow my cultipacker when you get ready to play with one. We're not far from you and I might even deliver it for the opportunity to see your successes first hand. That's a deal!......  I bet with the proper crop selection, you could eliminate the mowing altogether. Spray, sow, and cultipack. I don't see why this wouldn't work. I agree. The only thing I would worry about though is creating a solid mat of thatch. Sunn may be bulky enough that there would still be plenty of air space in between stalks and such but you can make a solid mat out of grasses that will smother out the your seedlings. The no-till farmers I've seen in the videos flatten cover crops like rye in this manner but they then come back behind it with a drill that cuts through the thatch allowing gaps for the seedlings to come through. Rough cutting it with a bush hog leaves everything in a criss cross patter with air space between the straw pieces.
Last edited by CNC; 03/30/15 03:04 AM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: bambam32]
#1313336
03/30/15 03:06 AM
03/30/15 03:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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CNC, I'd like to thank you for taking your time to create a tutorial for us newbies. I've attached a pic of what I'll be working with this year. It was planted with NWTF wheat. I'm going to get my soil sample soon and let it get a little higher before mowing. Thanks again. No problem....I enjoy helping you guys out. Keep us updated with pics and we will walk through the process as the summer goes on.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: dirkdaddy]
#1313342
03/30/15 03:11 AM
03/30/15 03:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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The Rodale institute has been experimenting with just this. They have invented/created a "roller/crimper" which is kind of a like a huge cultipacker with chevron teeth all around it. What they found is that they needed a roller that could cut the crop and lay it flat at the same time. By just rolling over it with a large 55 gallon drum filed with water or just by rolling it with a regular cultipacker they found that the crop would not die and planting was not a success. No mowing, no spraying. Just rolling and crimping the crop. You need something to break the stems or cut the plant when rolling, thus their roller/crimper was invented. http://rodaleinstitute.org/our-work/organic-no-till/ I've posted this video in several other threads in the past, so some of you may have already seen it.... but its a really good video to watch. I'm pretty sure that crimper roller is used in the video. Keep in mind when watching the farmers in the video that we are just trying to replicate the principles that are occurring and not necessarily the exact same process. We can tweak things if needed and adapt them to the tools that we have available. Undercover Farmershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXCLVCJWTU
Last edited by CNC; 03/30/15 03:11 AM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: CNC]
#1313434
03/30/15 04:29 AM
03/30/15 04:29 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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Talking about what is the absolute simplest method we could refine this down to……. Once your soil surface is turned around and in good condition…simply broadcasting our fall mix of cereal grain, clover, and brassica into a standing crop is a real possibility given that the standing crop is in the right conditions. Some areas of my leave rows were still a little too thick to allow enough sunlight to penetrate through to the ground…..other areas like the ones below worked out really nice. Again, it’s this canopy effect of the overstory that’s playing a role. If the summer crop was too thick maybe we mow the top half of it off to let light to the “forest floor”……If it’s thin enough that the seeds can establish in amongst the dieing summer plants….then maybe we just broadcast and walk away. This is what I’m really shooting for but it may not always work out the way we want and mowing may still be needed.  
Last edited by CNC; 03/30/15 04:30 AM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: N2TRKYS]
#1314288
03/31/15 02:30 AM
03/31/15 02:30 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,650
Lincoln, Alabama
blumsden
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,650
Lincoln, Alabama
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From a starting standpoint, can plantings, such as, sun hemp produce too much biomass? Maybe …. but in the beginning I would much rather have too much thatch than not enough. From a germination standpoint the clover seems to be the only thing that is really finicky to being covered over too much. The rye and peas just pushed right on through it. It may be better to broadcast the clover after mowing and just let it work its own way down to the soil…. or maybe mow the thatch at a taller height and only put a portion of it on the ground. The Japanese farmer from the book actually sowed his seed into the standing crop that was already in the field. He waited two weeks and allowed the seed to sprout first... then he removed the overstory of the mature crop…..spreading the hay back out over the field. This is why I think once you get the soil surface turned into mulch….you may just be able to make the process super simple and only broadcast your fall mix into whatever you grew in the summer. Part of being able to do that will depend on how much sunlight is able to penetrate through whatever is standing in the field. It maybe that mowing about knee high or waist high is just right to remove the overstory and only lightly cover the seed. Still some playing around to do to figure out what’s “just right”. If you felt like you had too much biomass on the surface you could always make an additional pass over the field with a disk after mowing to further chop it up but then again there we go having to add additional steps. I really like the soil health benefits and the use of less fert, etc…..but one of the biggest benefits to me (and many others) is the time savings. Every hunting club I’ve ever been a part of….its always been a major undertaking to try and do all of our fall plots in one work weekend. Not having to make numerous passes over every field really speeds things up. We even made a mixing barrel and combined our seed and fert together so that it was all broadcast on one pass. I'm thinking that it would be too much biomass for a disc to cut into our soil. Of course, this all depends on how well the deer eat it. I wonder if bushhogging it everytime it gets head high would help keep it from getting too stemy? IMO, you need to cut the sunn hemp down when it reaches head high, to around 18" and let it regrow from there. This way it doesn't get as stemy. IMO, the hemp wont get too thick to eliminate germination, because it stalk is so much large than grass specie's. Cereal rye on the other hand can certainly get too thick. It can be like a mat, so you have to be careful not to go too thick with it, along with your oats and wheat. Last year, i noticed a couple spots where my atv tracks pressed the thatch down when spraying, eliminated the seed from reaching the soil surface, and there wasn't any germination there, but i didn't care. The plot looked good and my soil was covered.
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: capehorn24]
#1319043
04/05/15 08:58 AM
04/05/15 08:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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So let me get this right for the throw and grow 1st attempt
1. let my plot grow
2. throw out some summer seed, but don't expect to much
2a. don't throw out seed
3. bushhog end of may, after 2/2a
4. soil samples, apply fixes during summer
5. come October, throw seed, bushhog, and let it grow
milo as the possible summer crop? Yeah....in a nutshell that's about right. Everyone's situation may be a little different though on how things play out from there. My biggest hurdle to overcome, especially at my hunting club, has been overcoming the browsing pressure. When you get to the point that you have degraded soils and high browsing pressure then it can become hard to produce enough biomass to get over the first initial hump. The deer consume most of the above ground biomass and there's not enough to feed anything to the soil to make a change. Getting past that point may mean just growing a vibrant crop of summer weeds and grasses that will thrive and produce biomass rather than trying to grow something that will struggle in poor soil conditions and just get wiped out by the deer. It may be that if your plots are small and deer numbers high....you may never be able to grow summer "crops" other than maybe just some clover and weeds. In these situations I think you will be better off to go with the choice that will end up producing the most biomass. This will help improve your soils and make the fall plots more productive....
Last edited by CNC; 04/05/15 08:58 AM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: CNC]
#1319174
04/05/15 12:28 PM
04/05/15 12:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,424
Prattville Al.
capehorn24
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,424
Prattville Al.
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So let me get this right for the throw and grow 1st attempt
1. let my plot grow
2. throw out some summer seed, but don't expect to much
2a. don't throw out seed
3. bushhog end of may, after 2/2a
4. soil samples, apply fixes during summer
5. come October, throw seed, bushhog, and let it grow
milo as the possible summer crop? Yeah....in a nutshell that's about right. Everyone's situation may be a little different though on how things play out from there. My biggest hurdle to overcome, especially at my hunting club, has been overcoming the browsing pressure. When you get to the point that you have degraded soils and high browsing pressure then it can become hard to produce enough biomass to get over the first initial hump. The deer consume most of the above ground biomass and there's not enough to feed anything to the soil to make a change. Getting past that point may mean just growing a vibrant crop of summer weeds and grasses that will thrive and produce biomass rather than trying to grow something that will struggle in poor soil conditions and just get wiped out by the deer. It may be that if your plots are small and deer numbers high....you may never be able to grow summer "crops" other than maybe just some clover and weeds. In these situations I think you will be better off to go with the choice that will end up producing the most biomass. This will help improve your soils and make the fall plots more productive.... Is not doing anything till October an option to have enough grass, clover, weeds for biomass for fall planting
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: capehorn24]
#1319189
04/05/15 12:49 PM
04/05/15 12:49 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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Is not doing anything till October an option to have enough grass, clover, weeds for biomass for fall planting That's going to vary a lot from plot to plot. For folks who have really cleaned up the weeds in their fields in the past....it may not flourish the first year. I had crabgrass come up here in my field at home after ceasing tillage and it really worked well for producing those first couple crops of biomass. The hunting club fields were a little different. I got mostly black eyed susans, dog fennel, and a few various other weeds. It didn't produce near the biomass but I did have enough thatch to work with.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: CNC]
#1319192
04/05/15 12:51 PM
04/05/15 12:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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Here is quick video of a farmer using the throw and mow method. The box on top of the cutting head has cover crop seed in it. The seed is being blown onto the ground under the combine and then the silage is blown out the back over the top of the seed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkEUrAroz4E
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: CNC]
#1319204
04/05/15 01:03 PM
04/05/15 01:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,621
Clanton
Turkey_neck
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,621
Clanton
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I'm gonna try in my small field this summer. It did fair this winter with trictacale and plan on using iron clay peas and sorghum with some additives for this summer.
Would walk over a naked woman to get to a gobblin turkey!
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: capehorn24]
#1319288
04/05/15 02:42 PM
04/05/15 02:42 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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Is not doing anything till October an option to have enough grass, clover, weeds for biomass for fall planting
Just to elaborate on this question a little further…This is one of the reasons I mentioned to go ahead and start adding fertilizer recommendations now. Once we stop tillage and begin building organic matter in the soil, then you can begin to look at your fertilization program in a little different manner. It may sound odd to fertilize weeds this summer but those weeds are going to take up some of those nutrients….eventually die…and then begin to breakdown into the soil, recycling those nutrients back to the soil in an organic form. As we continue to do this then we build more and more organic matter in the soil from the standpoint of depth and concentration…we are in essence building up a large reserve of organic nutrients which our plants then use and recycle.
Last edited by CNC; 04/05/15 02:43 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: CNC]
#1319311
04/05/15 03:04 PM
04/05/15 03:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
CNC
OP
Dances With Weeds
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OP
Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,755
Awbarn, AL
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To illustrate what I’m saying…..Here is my first crop of summer weeds today. Its now part of an organic nutrient reserve in the top 5-6 inches of soil (the black dirt you see). That bank vault is capable of holding onto exponentially more nutrients and water than what our sand is capable of. This is what gives us rich fertile soil instead of sand. A soil test is going to show you what your soil nutrient vault is lacking or what you need to do to get it in balance. 
Last edited by CNC; 04/05/15 03:05 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: CNC]
#1319325
04/05/15 03:12 PM
04/05/15 03:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
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Does anybody do this method in plots that stay wet during the Winter and Spring?
83% of all statistics are made up.
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Re: Throw n' Mow Tutorial
[Re: CNC]
#1319540
04/06/15 02:27 AM
04/06/15 02:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
N2TRKYS
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 14,588
Tuscaloosa Co.
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Mine's not that wet all the time, however it does get under water from time to time. The water subsides the next day, but the ground stay wet for a long time.
83% of all statistics are made up.
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