Great dialogue on this thread... The one thing no one really has a definite handle and count is number of new hunters in the woods each Spring. That shear volume and w technology of our toys we use (shotguns, Nitro's, TSS, calls, decoys, camo and the like) we may be just at point of diminishing returns in some areas of the state... Add predators and possible avian pox die outs... It just adds up... Managing county or areas of counties to specific sustainable and healthy numbers.

The good ole days were so rich when the competition between hunters in the woods was not as great... But if we want to fight the Anti's ... We need the extra hunters and non- hunters who vote and are not opposed to hunting....Delicate Balance For Sure.

Atoler - Call me a fool then. No problem. The words you write are easy to lay down, but are not facts.

What is the natural patchwork we had before? Before what timeline? You do realize before the era of industrial timberland ownership, it was hard to find a decent population anywhere in the state (30s to 60s). Like I have stated before, industrial timberland ownership is less than 30% of those 22.9 million acres. And they were harvesting and managing timber during the highest populations just as they are today. That variable hasn't changed over the decline we may be experiencing today.

So call me a fool, but you will need a variable that has changed to lay blame.

I don't really understand what hunter numbers have to do with the fact that every biologists opinion, I have ever heard, states that it is basically impossible to hurt a turkey population by taking spring gobblers.

To add to that, we are actually experiencing a decline in hunter numbers based on license sales. I believe the internet just makes it seem like there are more hunters.

As I said, timber production is not the nail in the coffin that many want to believe. But.... I would like to see you present information that supports that it helps, as you seem to think.... I used to hunt a place when I was younger, that was all mature hardwoods, sage fields, and swamp. It was common to hear 10 birds in a morning. They came in, cut most of the woods, planted pines, and there were basically no turkeys. After 10 years and a thinning, I was able to hunt it again. We heard 1 bird that morning. The buddy that has the lease now, sometimes hears 2 or 3 on a good morning. I'm sure the population will get better as the trees get larger, then it will be cut again and the turkey habitat will be gone for another 10-15 years. Even at a pine plantations peak maturity, I have never seen solid timber land that rivals really good natural timber stands.

Maybe a better way to state my opinion is to ask a question. Without stepping foot on a property. Would you pay more money for a turkey only lease, that was 90% pines? or one that was 90% hardwoods and mixed timber?

Cmon man! You cant be throwing loaded questions out like that. Great point, btw.

Some of the best places I've ever turkey hunted was 100% pines.

What exactly are timber companies doing to help the population? Clear cut, spray everything so it won't grow, replant pines in rows. After about 15 years they will help the wildlife when they thin but that is just a by product of making money on their trees. Im not mad at em for it but don't tell me they are in the business of wildlife management.

After it was thinned I assume

Really? I've hunted some pretty good places that were timberland too. It didn't stay that way for long though.

All stages, actually.

It is a trap question. It is also based on a micro manage, individual tract level. And that's not the discussion. But I'll play along.

I will have to make 2 assumptions. 1 - mixed timber is mature and what we visualize as a pretty place to call up a turkey. 2 - pines and managed at a variable age stand level.

If the tract is 80 acres, I'll take the mixed timber.

If it is 1000 acres, I'll take the managed pines.

See here is my problem with that line of thinking, assume that mixed timber and mature pines are equal in benefit to turkey habitat. Given a typical setup on 1000 acres of variable age pines. You would have 300 of mature pines, 300 of thicker young pines, and 300 of clearcut. And 100 of misc scrag and oak bottoms. The 300 in clear cut is only usable for nesting, although is way more nesting habitat than is necessary. The young thick pines are really of no benefit, unless thinned. So in essence, on your average timber tract, I see very little way to ever have more than about 75% of your land as turkey habitat at a time. If you compare that to your average mixed timer/ hardwoods, where the vast majority is usable. You could even argue that a managed pine stand is more valuable somehow, and it would be very hard to ever make up that 20-25%.

I know a place that's nearly all pines.....and it's as fine a spot as I've ever been on.....

Here's a pine stand that I predict will have a turkey or 2 on it this season:



I couldn't make it to the farm until late Friday afternoon. Got it going about 4:30, but the humidity was low enough that it finished burning shortly after dark.



In my experience, things like this are the way to increase the turkey population. Lowering the limit won't help a bit. If you wanta improve the turkey population, get out and burn the woods!

How many folks think that if you killed every mature gobbler on your place every year and expect no adverse effects?

Depends on how big your place is. If its 10,000 acres, you'd might run into the problem of not having enough gobblers to breed the hens if that particular year if you had a poor hatch. Then you might not have enough jakes to grow into 2 year olds and breed the hens.

If you are talking about 100 acres, it wouldn't make any difference. Gobblers range over several thousand acres, so if you have the hens, you will have the gobblers.

I think the season length should be set so that this doesn't happen. So far, it hasn't happened anywhere that I hunt. And that's with over 60 years of a generous limit and season length. If it is happening in other places, then shorten the season.

My wife is ready at last; I'm off to church! All have a good day!

We need to lower the limit of turkey HUNTERS.

I kinda liked it back when I was the only turkey hunter I knew. And that is the truth. In the early to mid 80's, I did not know a single person under the age of 50 that hunted turkeys, other than me. In fact I personally knew of only 2 other people that turkey hunted. They were timber guys that were sort of like hermits. Both are passed on now to the great hardwood bottom in the sky.

Dr. B

I'm going to disagree with ya on land size Preacher. My brother hunted a small place of less than 100 acres. He and five others killed every gobbling bird on that place, all season long. Somebody was there near every day. Most of them were mid to good turkey hunters. I think they killed near 20 gobblers. I told em several times to stop and leave a couple of birds. Of course they were drawing off the surrounding land also, esp late in the season.

Next year...NO gobbling, I think they killed one bird and heard very few. Couldn't understand why???? They won't gobble out of a freezer......

try what again????

90+% of the hardwood bottoms were clear cut in a short period of time over a huge area of one county. Where do you think the turkeys moved to???? And what was their survival rate in marginal areas???

You try again, you wern't there and didn't see it. Theory ain't the same as fact...