Bill now proposed to extend
deer season thru Feb 15 so that hunters
in the southern half of the State can
hunt the full rut.

I said it the other day: CHANGE IS COMING!!

So to all the *ssholes in the north(ern half)
[of the State] that have been working to
deprive us Southerners of our God Given sacred
natural right (and State's Right at that) to hunt the
full rut, take that and shove it where the
sun don't shine!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dam commies.

Don't get excited yet. That proposal has been kicked around for a couple of decades. But it is heating up again as it always does between Feb one and April fifteen.

Where will the line be drawn dickhead? I live an hour north of Birmingham and had a buck chasing a doe through the field in front of my house last Tuesday.

I've heard the bill has a decent chance of passing with an addendum, anyone not living in the south zone will be required to purchase a non resident license to hunt in the south zone.

It's gonna be a real pisser next year when they start rutting February 16.

I'm not against extending the season but anyone that lives in this state having to purchase another license is bullchit

All joking aside...I think it has a good chance to pass.

I heard that there was going to be an addendum that only allowed WmHunter to shoot does in February!

okay, yall have got the season extended. woohoo.

now lets hear some of the excuses as to why from feb 1 thru feb 15 why still the big buck has not been taken. lets hear some cause its gonna be some excuse . sure is not because we did not have enough days to hunt. my lord the deer are worn out by jan 31 much less the hunters i know.

Not on my property. If it does pass I'll hunt a lot less in December and the first half of January and wait for the rut to start to hunt a lot.

I hope you will post the fetal aging studies to prove your theory.

I think this ones gonna get interesting. I grew up in central alabama but live in north alabama now. I bowhunt up here and hunt the rut up here til new yrs. Then i go back south and hunt the rut in January. This could be a Bitch!!!

So if we follow this logic, I guess we'll see Florida keep deer season open through March.

Dr. B

while they passing out more hunting days, lets ask for season to start 15AUG like SC we may even get em to make it all yr long like feral swine. got more hogs in bama now than ever before, maybe we need to kill more deer too. dont think so

Good maybe then we can keep these yankees from driving our lease prices up.

you mean April, they have a primitive weapons season after gun season goes out in mid Feb

I don't care to do a study - all I wil have to do is come back on here after the season is over to see the push for an even further extended season.

I do find it ironic that so many pushed for a 3-buck limit because too many bucks were being killed, yet want to extend the season so more bucks can be killed. I am sure that there are some that are for one or the other, but I imagine there are some that support both as well.

Who is joking?
Have you not heard about the state's revenue shortfall?
You can bet the farm, it will generate revenue, or it won't pass.

What is the dividing line for north and south zones?

I think it's gonna have to be Tennessee, to make everybody happy.

you ASSume they can be made happy . lol

If the season lasts any longer, I'm going to end up jobless and divorced....

Richard Cranium sounds more polite.

am i understanding this right? are there some forum members on here that are against extending the season?

Put it on a ballot and let the hunters that purchase license decide...I vote statewide October 1-February 15, 3 bucks with a tagging system that can be either called in or done online. If you don't want to hunt any of the extra days, no one is gonna force you.

WHY!!! I thought all this Limits and Restrictions were gonna "balance" the herd in such a way that the rut would be earlier and more intense??? Who wants to wait until February and shoot a run down, poor, bruised up buck, with all his tines broken off, that has just survived an intense rut??
As for a split season, been there and done that, I would vote no. Whats the point of a split season.
But actually, just for me, I would just as soon it open when it gets cold enough to run in the mosquitos until they come back out again in the spring. Say from Nov. 1 until April 15th.

Fold'em, if it is put on a ballot ... non-hunters would have a say-so.

You really want someone who likes looking at that deer behind the pond but secretly hates seeing you go hunting, even though they're polite enough to not say anything, deciding anything about our hunting seasons?

If 82 percent of the voters approved Forever Wild 20 years ago, I wouldn't want to see the response for pushing hunting seasons longer or shifting them. It might be quite surprising to the hunting community.

As well, the retinue of goobers on THIS site alone is so fractured about "extending" or "shifting" or "drawing a line" about seasons ... going on about hunting "my" rut ad nauseum ... 49er squawking about the Legislature (funny how he's not here, but was during the season and now that the Legislature's in session he's ... gone. He must be busy.) ... the "evil" Conservation Advisory Board ain't worth a flip ... legalize baiting (with a stamp tax, no less) or you ain't a man and are only lazy if you're baiting ...

It goes on and on. This damn place is a like a Baptist sewing circle with one woman who got divorced, started going to Tunica and is banging the handsome 28-year old at the pharmacy but is the Kindergarten teacher everyone things is fantastic.

"OH MY GOSH! Did you hear! She's so ... so ... she's runnin' around! What do we do! You shouldn't do anything, she has a life! But she's around kids and is (whispering) sleeping with Billy! She's a good teacher and hasn't been any problem before. Why SHE went to TOONIKA! Arrggggh!!!"

If this site isn't together - and it's not - and the DCNR isn't together - and it's not - and the Advisory Board and Legislature aren't all together and everyone's trying to put a spoon in the pot ... we darn sure don't need the General Public voting on something like this.

It appears the legislature will be overtaking the biologist role of decision making for hunting seasons.

like I stated earlier be careful what you wish you just might get it

It ain't about science or biology.

All of the incredibly important things our Legislature needs to be thinking about and they're diddling around with feeder permits and deer seasons.

Maybe one of them will have the guts and balls to publicly state that they have other things to take care of and the DCNR needs to handle these matters.

Well I see I successfully stirred things
up around here.

*************

It amazes me how many people in the northern
half of Alabama get so much heartburn over something
as simple as allowing their fellow citizens in the
southern half of the State to have the same thing
they already have. It is totally irrational. Heartburn.
Self righteous indignation. Slippery slopes. Ad
hominem abusives. Sky will fall. Protect the status quo.
We don't know how to draw a straight line. Even plants and fellow travelors posting for their buddies at the CAB and DCNR who just don't want change.

It is just plain ridiculous.

**************

Change is coming.
It may not happen this year, but
it will happen - and a lot sooner
than later.

I'm not against an extended season, I'm more for a split season if biology supports it. Numerous past Spring Fetal Surveys will suffice in a biological consensus.


It also appears there will be another spring survey State wide to gather more info.



The legislature has no clue except political pressures from constituents, more money equals more political pressure, AND the more I listen to others in other States it seems no one is HAPPY with their hunting situation.

so

Cause your post is a joke. The bill does not include language that would require a "north Al" resident buy a non resident licenses from what I understand. Correct me if I am wrong...

Now this is very true. It is a shame that the DNCR hasn't stepped up on these issues. A fetal survey should have been ordered years ago...

they've been doing spring fetal surveys for numerous years, can't remember the exact rotation but it is how they came up with the average deer breeding date for Al, January 22 or so. From what I'm aware of it has not changed since the inception of the spring fetal survey

pretty sure one will be underway State wide this Spring

If the average for the state is the 22nd, then the S. AL needs a split season IMO.

I'm not against that at all, a split to me would be nice and probably meaningful to you guys down south

the biologist just need to look at specific areas from data they already have and make a decision

keep the dang politicians at bay, please it's political enough as is

just became a 12 point on this thread

Fetal surveys have been ongoing for years.

Just because the DCNR doesn't publicize every single thing they do doesn't mean they're not doing things.

Read this, http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2011/03/alabama_deer_study_leader_skep.html

Fetal surveys have been going on for a number of years, but obviuosly what people see or don't see in the woods should trump the biology. Also, as I recall there was a post on aldeer.com that showed average conception dates from fetal surveys done in NW Florida that did not support February conception dates, so apparently there is some isolated tiny sliver of south Alabama that has a totally separate species of whitetail deer that the biologist can't seem to locate, but warrants an extended season in February for rutting activity that can't be identified.

Communication and education would make their jobs alot easier. For example, if they have fetal surveys that indicate differently than what hunters in South Al experience, then why not communicate that to them, then educate them as to why the season doesnt need to be extended?

They publicize this info all over. What are they supposed to do, go door to door? Matter of fact it is publicized on this website and some on here failed to read it. One of the worst problems we (biologists) have to deal with is a constituency that has failed to read information available to them.

Where?

Links?

If that is what it takes, because I havent seen anything and apparently, from the looks of this thread, I'm not alone.

I just did a Google search for "Alabama DCNR fetal survey" and also for "Alabama DCNR whitetail deer fetal survey."

Those, logically, would be the likely words used in such a search engine. Nothing comes up with any results for published materials, either in-house or in the news media.

http://www.aldeer.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=102685#Post102685

This to start. Since I read Wildlife Trends, Alabama Wildlife, Outdoor Alabama, and any other pertinent wildlife/management publication I can get my hands on, I have seen it several times. Where? Call Chris Cook or Bill Grey, they do the studies

Unless you're a member of AWF, look at OutdoorAlabama.com and know where to look, or subscribe to Wildlife Trends ... few would know where to find it or could find it.

That's not truly "all over." It may be known in the wildlife biology circles but the common Joe don't know about it.

Quick Google search

My thoughts exactly, I was trying to pull up some CAB minutes the other day and gave up and went back to searching for my lost needle in the haystack because it was easier.

Gobbler, what words did you use to search and find that info? Just wondering.

I would submit that if you are a deer hunter, have an interest in deer and deer hunting, and have an interest and opinion on this subject and DON"T subscribe to Wildlife Trends, Alabama Wildlife Federation, Don't keep up with outdooralabama or any of the other publications where this information is released, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution Again, what are they supposed to do, find each deer hunter and hand it to them, stand at the door of the CAB and provide handouts. If you WANT the season extended, you should seek out good biological data to support your argument and not rely on anecdotal observations. MHO

eskimo, you have to go to the main site:

outdooralabama.com

And then scroll to the bottom and click on "About Us"

http://outdooralabama.com/about/

And then look for "Advisory Board" and click on it:

http://outdooralabama.com/about/board/

This gives you the contact info and list of members. The minutes are listed on the right side by Month-Year, although the header doesn't say anything about minutes. It says "In this section ..."

Thanks

Part of the problem huh? My apologies your magnificant Highness.

The line should be "drawn" using science as a basis. In most states like Florida different regions for deer season were made using a conception date study carried out by Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission biologists. The study, conducted over two years, looked at mean conception dates of does across the state of Florida. The deer regions, each with different hunting dates, were drawn having the results of this study. Alabama should do the same type of study before any lines are drawn to separate deer hunting regions based on rut dates. To haphazardly draw a line based on the hearsay you bring up is not the way to do it. I hope that if the season is extended that somebody will have the wisdom to remove deer hunting days between November and February so that we don't end up overharvesting deer in Alabama. To just add two weeks to the season without taking a couple of weeks out seems counterproductive.

I knew I was staying out of this for a reason. I am/was not trying to poke anyone. Sorry, but I write as well and it is frustrating when I meet folks who haven't spent time trying to get educated on a subject but still have a STRONG opinion.

Guess I'm part of the problem, Gob.

I don't subscribe to Wildlife Trends, although Andy is kind enough to send it to me. I enjoy reading it very much.

I'm not a member of AWF. I also visit the DCNR site regularly but have yet to see anything significantly displayed, promoted, publicized or put forth about fetal survey info and how it relates to seasons, breeding, etc.

You know well enough the common guy doesn't keep up with this either. You know that. Right? Sure you do. The main reason you know all this is because you're in the wildlife and resources industry. Only the true diehards would be keeping up with fetal info and its publication in wildlife and biological periodicals.

Find each hunter? Go door to door?

Y'know what? That's not impossible given the INTERNET and how easily available it is to disseminate information in today's world.

Stand at the door at CAB meetings and provide handouts? Why, they don't even have a specific agenda available beforehand about what's going to be discussed, unlike some states (Tennessee, specifically), so people will have an idea other than from email scuttlebutt about what's going on. Providing information about fetal studies, fisheries research and other topics at the door might be a welcomed by the attendees.

Digging up studies and info is a good suggestion. It shouldn't be so damn hard for the average guy to do it, though. Wildlife Trends - I just went to their site - requires subscription and membership to view any articles. AWF requires membership and a lot of people don't want to join, for various reasons.

The state agency that does these things does it with public money and the info is public. It should be easily provided to the public without the public having to search high and low, hard and fast, to find it. But it's not an uncommon problem among state and federal agencies throughout the nation.

Really? We still have a three buck limit...

Maybe you should re-read the florida reseach. As you can see, much of the Florida panhande just south of us had mean conception dates in feburary with one area as late as Feburary 17.

You either don't understand or haven't read the research. The rutting activity is very well identified.

http://www.myfwc.com/media/497717/Deer_MeanConceptionDates.pdf

The problem I have with the data I have seen is that it generalized a mean conception date for the state...such as this information saying January 21. Even the posted information says that some areas in Alabama have a febuary mean conception date which supports what some people are saying about their properties.

If you turn to the Florida data, the mean conception dates are shown to vary widely just within the short distance of the panhande...from late october in the east panhandle to as late as February 17 in the west. Almost the entire tier of Florida counties south of the southernmost Alabama counties have a February mean conception date. The geographic trend of this data from Florida supports that there are some areas of Alabama with mean conception dates in February...either that or the Florida deer know not the cross the state line.

http://www.myfwc.com/media/497717/Deer_MeanConceptionDates.pdf

I was going from memory and now stand as corrected. Do you recall the study period?

Also, this study should be shown to AL DCNR and request that detailed studies be done for all of the counties that border Florida to determine the bst way to manage the resource.

It is 2009.

i don't think it really matters exactly when the peak of the rut is - we all know that it's from mid jan to mid feb in most parts of s. al. - i totally agree that our seasons and limits should be based on science - it's just that i think there's enough data already compiled to allow adcnr to adjust our season without having an adverse effect on our deer herd - i've been involved with the wildlife industry in se al for 25+ years and have seen many things change - most of them for the better - hunters are managing their properties much better, whether they own or lease them, they are more informed than ever before and they expect adcnr to use the scientific data on hand and adjust seasons so that hunters in ALL areas of the state can experience as much of the rut cycle as possible - it's about QUALITY not QUANTITY for most all of us - we're more than willing to give up days, we already have a 3 buck limit, many of us are for tags and minimum buck restrictions - most people i talk to would like to see gun season come in for 7 days at thanksgiving - go out - back in dec 20 - out feb 15 - we're not ignorant, uneducated, greedy, slob hunters who think that the month of feb is some "magic bullet" - we're well informed hunters and taxpayers who expect our wildlife to be protected for future generations and managed at the optimum level possible in ALL areas of the state

You said it much better than I could have Slipn.

Very well said slipn.

I do enjoy seeing the very same people who said that politicians should stay out of hunting regs getting all wet over this latest pice of legislation. Now you have folks like John Rogers deciding about what's best for the wildlife of this state. Priceless!!! It's obvious that some of you will ride whatever horse is going your direction and it doesn't matter about what kind of horse it is. Career politicians who have never stepped foot in the woods will tell you what's best. The very politicians who are going to vote where the dollar is, the very ones who will listen all day to animal rights organizations if the money's there. You're right fellas, change is coming.

But, that's what 49er said is best and correct and the way it should be done ... through the Legislature.

Now you're saying it's not the best way?

Man. So confusing.

Legislators or Wildlife Biologists? Legislators who, during the big crossbow debate, watched a few shots into a target in a parking deck and tut-tutted at the show before having a hearing about it? Or Wildlife Biologists who study this stuff religiously and know what it's all about?

Tough decision. Dang.

Guess we'll have to go with Legislators since it looks like 49er might get his way and have this august body of elected officials making the wildlife decisions for the hunters.

Will this be "Change we can believe in?" or just change?

My opinion (like it matters). I would like to see a season as follows. October 1 till November 15... bow. November 15th till December 15th... add youth rifle(with Thanksgiving holiday weekend allow adult rifle)... December 15th till Jan. 31...adult rifle. Jan. 31 till 2nd Sat. in Feb. bow/muzzle loader/shotgun/youth rifle.

As far as legal baiting in Alabama(really). I think it will over time make the deer harder to kill(make them more nocturnal) unless you have some sort of timing regulation on the feeding system. Which would be next to impossible to enforce.

Just my 2 cents...

Wow. All this brewhaha over a brown coated animal with/without antlers?? Folks, just shoot a deer when you want too. We have plenty of them all over the state and if you get any chance to hunt, you will have a chance to kill one. North, south, east, west, it dosen't matter.

Rut? For heaven's sake, hunt in January!! The peak may vary a few days either way from the middle of the month but deer in Alabama rut in January! I've hunted from the TN to FL lines and seen bucks chasing does during January the entire length of the state. We all know that!

IMO, If you can't kill (or have the opportunity to kill) a buck in January in this state, then one of 3 things are going on: your hunting land sucks, you can't take off work during the rut so your job sucks, or your hunting skills suck.

Carry on.

Dr. B

our wildlife regulations have constantly changed since adcnr began - as the science behind wildlife mgmt evolves i think it would be logical to assume regs will change - not all of us are for legislative action - i think that adcnr will do it very soon - believe it or not there's a pretty good number of hunters that support changes in our deer regs and have worked for years to see them enacted - i, for one, am steadfast in my position - buck limits, revised season, tags, mature buck restrictions - change is not COMING - it's here NOW

LOL. Doc it is not about folks not being able to kill a buck (at least not for me). We want to hunt the full rut.

Why in the hell are some you so dead set against this??

If science agrees (and Chris Cook said he has not ruled it out, just has reservations) then lets wait and see what unfolds.

i think you posted that you do 70% of your hunting in south mont county - i've got a large, well managed piece of property in south barbour county - i'll be happy to trade you hunt for hunt next jan - i'm sure your superior hunting skills you've honed to a keen edge in the open woods of the black belt will shine down here in the thickets of these red clay hills

Actually, all of my deer hunting is in the black belt. Most of it in Lowndes county but I hunt south Montgomery county and some in Butler. But I cut my teeth on hunting above the fall line in the hills and hollers of Coosa, Talapoosa, and Elmore counties back when you could hunt all year and not see a deer. I've paid my dues and learned the hard way on how to kill a deer in the hills, in the thickets, in the creek bottoms, or wherever. I am lucky enough to hunt in an area that has a good population of deer now and I will be the first to say that hunting is easier when there are more deer around. DUH! But killing a trophy (which to me is anything 130 and over) is still hard no matter where (or when)you hunt.

I never claimed my hunting skills are superior to anyone on this site. But, I do my scouting, my homework with the topo map, and put in my time wearing out some boot leather with a gps. And guess what? I see deer and lots of 'em. And incidently, very rarely are they in "the open woods." I hunt in the thickest, nastiest places I can get a climber into. But in all fairness, I have been know to scoot up into a ladder stand overlooking a food plot as well.

Lets just let the season run from October 15-October 14. Then we get the velvet, the hard antler, the rut, the rut again, the rut once more, the antler shedding, the dropping of fawns, the faded spots, the growing of antler, and finally full velvet agin! That way we'll all be happy!

Dr. B

Dangit, I need more butter on my popcorn!!

I just got an email outlining the bills' sponsors and alternative proposals. If someone will shoot me a PM, I'll email it to you to post here or start a new thread. I don't know how to put an article up on the site.

Dr. B

For informational use:
MS Deer Breeding Map

Your nuts!! There is gonna be more divorces than ever!!!!!

From bamaeyedoc:

Alabama deer season would be extended into February if bill passes

The opportunity to hunt all phases of south Alabama'��s white-tailed deer breeding season is the driving force behind an effort to get state conservation department officials to extend the season to Feb. 15, organizers say. (File Photo)
A bill reauthorizing funding for the Forever Wild program, and another that would extend the state's deer season into February and legalize hunting deer over bait, could get a hearing in the Alabama Legislature this year.

On the first day of the 2011 session, Rep. Randy Davis, R-Daphne, filed a bill that would continue funding the land-acquisition provision of Forever Wild at its current level through 2032. Sen. Scott Beason, R-Gardendale, introduced a companion bill in the Senate.

Sen. Tom Whatley, R-Opelika, introduced a bill setting regular deer gun season from early November to 2 weeks into February. It would also legalize baiting deer during hunting season.

Two southwest Alabama co-sponsors of Whatley's bill, Sen. Marc Keahey, D-Grove Hill, and Sen. Rusty Glover, R-Mobile, believe the bill is a way to begin seriously discussing extending deer season into February so hunters in the southern part of the state can take full advantage of the rut.

"I think white-tailed deer season is long enough, if not too long," said Keahey, who is a deer hunter, "but the problem is that white-tailed deer hunters are not able to hunt during all parts of the rut."

Keahey said he has already spoken to conservation commissioner N. Gunter Guy Jr. about scheduling gun season to come in through Thanksgiving so families can enjoy that traditional time in the woods together, then closing it up to three weeks in December. His plan would reopen the season before the Christmas holidays and close it on Valentine's Day.

Could muzzle-loader use spur spending by Alabama hunters?


Keahey supports the use of muzzle-loaders only in the first 2 weeks of February if the season is extended. He said that would spur economic activity since hunters who don't already have such a weapon would likely buy one.

"I think the help extending the season would provide to our economy locally would trump any reason not to have a muzzle-loader season in February," he said.

Keahey added that he would be willing to consider allowing dog deer hunting throughout December so those hunters wouldn't lose any more days in the woods. Dog deer hunting ends on Jan. 15 while stalk hunting only continues through Jan. 31.

Glover said he would allow hunters to choose the weapon they use during the extended season.

Twenty-nine representatives and 5 senators had signed on as co-sponsors of the Forever Wild reauthorization bills when they were filed. Forever Wild funding also has the support of newly inaugurated Gov. Robert Bentley.

The land-acquisition program, which has existed since 1992, receives 10 percent of the investment income earned on oil and gas royalties deposited into the Alabama Trust Fund. Funding is capped at $15 million annually.

The land-acquisition funding mechanism expires in 2012.

Greg Lein, the assistant director of the State Lands Division, said through September 2010 that Forever Wild has used the $164 million it's received to purchase 220,000 acres of land in 32 tracts across the state. The vast majority of the land is open for public recreational use, and 184,000 acres can be hunted.

About one-third of the funds came from federal grant programs such as the North American Wetlands Conservation Act and the Forest Legacy Program.

"We've married Forever Wild to those federal grant programs and really have been able to leverage the state's investment," Lein said. "Without that seed money, there are no federal programs except the Coastal Impact Assistance Program where you don't have to have a match. That's what makes Alabama unique. We had a ready source of matching funds."

Lein said if funding is not renewed, no new land could be purchased but a separate Forever Wild stewardship account would still receive enough money to maintain areas already in the program.

"It'd be a hell of a shame if it wasn't reauthorized," Lein said. "I don't think anyone wants that. This could be an opportunity to feel good about something in these difficult economic times."

Related topics: Forever Wild, Rep. Randy Davis (R-Daphne), Sen. Scott Beason (R-Gardendale), Sen. Tom Whatley (R-Opelika)

I've read through the comments on here and think it's a very interesting, yet political topic. I commend those that are suggesting that whatever decisions are made should be based on scientific data. Along these lines, much of this discussion has focused on the reproductive surveys that the state has been conducting since 1995. They have a decent data set, and are working hard to make it even stronger. Hopefully, science will play a role in this decision.

But, the one thing that very few people have mentioned is....the biological effects that a season change may cause. I feel that we should be doing two things: (1) Making decisions based on data, and (2) Considering the biological, social, economic, etc. implications for whatever change is proposed. In my opinion, number 2 doesn't seem to be getting much attention.

Does a potential increase in buck harvest concern anyone? Does a potential decrease in the proportion of mature bucks in the herd cause concern? Does a potential shift in sex ratios have implications? These are just a few of the biological effects that could occur. Would they devastating to our deer herd? No. Might they take the deer herd in a direction that is not what we would prefer? Maybe.

I don't know if any of these three (and there are more) would happen, but, I would like to think that the potential for biological effects such as these would be considered during such a debate...in this venue as well as in those where the decision is actually made. I have refrained from discussing the social, economic, and other types of effects that such a change could lead to, because my training is in biology.

I understand the desire of deer hunters in Alabama to hunt the entire pre-rut, rut, and post-rut. I have no problem with opinions that are either for or against such a proposal. I just hope that we all consider the effects that any changes might cause.

I guess I would ask all to just take a few moments to consider both the positive and negative aspects of any proposed changes, and try to consider them from both sides of the argument. I think such an approach would help to generate additional thought-provoking discussions.

Steve, you are spot on! Decisions based on sound data is a good thing!

Steve, a few days back I started a thread that simply asked for a biological reason as to why the season should be extended. After several pages of responses, would you care to guess at how many answers I got to my question? ZERO!!! It's kind of like talking to children while they are drooling at the window of the candy store. You can tell them the candy could rot their teeth out down the road but all they care about is the satisfaction of the here and now. They want what tastes good to them now, not what's healthy.

(1) decisions should be based on scientific data - i agree 100% - 16 years of reproductive data should be more than sufficient to make a 2 week season change - we adopted an open doe season and 3 buck limit with less data than that (2) biological implications - many areas in alabama have a december rut - they've hunted all 3 phases of the rut for years - does our data show that they have taken the deer herd in those areas in an undesireable direction? i have friends that hunt next to the chattahoochee river in barbour, henry and houston counties - their rut peaks in dec - it's still difficult to kill a mature buck, even during the peak - they get to enjoy all phases of the rut and their hunting quality seems unaffected - can't we use the biological data that's been collected in these areas over the years and have a general idea about what would occur given the same senario elsewhere - (3) social implications - if we had a split season - in 7 days at thanksgiving - out until dec 20 - in until feb 15 - more small game hunting would occur in dec, especially duck and dove - more family time before christmas - the quality of hunting would be better during the holiday season because of less pressure and more animals available - this would be a plus for the kids who are out of school during this time - (4) economic impact - increased small game hunting should offset deer hunting revenue during the first 3 weeks of dec - this is typically a lull period in most areas of al for deer hunting anyway - more hunting would occur during 2 weeks in feb than 3 in dec - this in itself should be more than enough to offset any revenue lost in dec - it's time to use the scientific data we have on hand, incorporate public opinion and common sense and start tweeking our regulations to optimize the use of our wildlife resources while still preserving them for future generations - any successful organization, public or private, is constantly changing - adcnr is no exception

Yeah, right.

Deer hunters already want small game hunters out of the picture from Oct. 15 to Jan. 31.

They won't be encouraging small game hunters to enjoy the "split" because they'd be "making noise and stirring up all the bucks before the rut!"

Sounds good in theory. But they don't do it now, and won't do it then.

hunting all phases of the rut has not hurt the deer herd in areas of alabama with a december rut - this was the case even before the 3 buck limit - why would an extended, shorter deer season that includes all phases of the rut have an adverse biological effect 10 miles away? i have yet to see a legitimate biological reason we shouldn't do it

Do you consider the post rut part of "all parts" of the rut? If so, when would you think the post rut to occurs in south AL? Should hunters be able to hunt that period as well when the deer get back to a period when they can be patterned?

clem i guess every area is different - i don't know where you're located but in se al access and availability is not a problem when it comes to duck and dove hunting - timing is usually the issue - a lot of times it's hard to get a shoot together because so many are deer hunting - take deer hunting out of the equation for 3 weeks and you'll have much more duck and dove hunting down here - imo

I'm talking about squirrels and rabbits more than ducks and doves, but I get your point.

Darn straight. I think they ought to shorten the season all around the state instead.

Is Matt available to answer how the same changes, made in Mississippi, effected the herd?

Steve...

It is my opinion that saying shifting the season so that there is a break in December and then the season will end in February will result in more bucks being killed and more mature bucks being killed is an overstatement. I realize that you said "could" to each of the social and biological issues but in your discussion you failed to include that the opposites "could" also occur.

A few possiblilites are that

1) As hunters are able to hunt into February they will be more comfortable passing a marginal buck in late January as they will not percieve that the marginal buck may be their only chance at a "shooter" for the year.

2) Hunters who are now dissatisfied that they are not getting to hunt into February will be more likely to work at habitat improvement, improving age structure, and other management techniques if they feel like their investment is more likly to pay dividends..

As I am sure you are aware...humans are the most unpredictable animals. To almost any action involving human behavior, there are unintended and unpredicted consequences. To say that shifting the season later will result in a change in age structure or buck harvest is an overstatement unless there is research out there to provide confimation. If there is research on this situation, I'd be interested in reading it. It the research is there though...you probably would have left out the word "could".

A break is not a new idea. Georgia had a December break for years and we always hunted small game during that break.

I also agree that there are a ton of dove shoots down here in southeast Alabama during deer season.

Does man, does! What makes more deer? More days to harvest does, more does WILL be harvested, or should I say killed. Some one here get a bit testy when the word harvest is used.

Uh yeah I've read it and gun season in the western panhandle runs through February 15, with muzzleloader and archery through February 28. The season was changed and new regions added as a result of the research so that hunters could hunt the rut in their respective regions.

To those who advocate setting seasons stricly for the biological benefit of wildlife:

What fundamental rights do animals have, if any, that the state has a duty to protect?

Are you, perhaps, a conservative animal rights advocate?

MS extended the season in only a few counties in the southeastern part of the state, which were biologically proven to have a later rut, extending into February. The season was extended to allow hunters the opportunity afforded by the rest of the state, to hunt the rut of course.

I can potentially see a couple of negatives. Neither of which I have ground to stand on right now. With last year's new regulations allowing primitive weapons on Novemebr 9 until the opening of regular gun season, and the extension into February I can argue the length of time guns are allowed could potentially over-exploit the buck segment of the population. And, south MS has a lower deer density and poorer habitat quality than the rest of the state. Combine those two together and I could see problems at some point.

The hunters sure haven't complained about it.

Seems like a good sound rational to meet the DCNR division of "Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries - The mission of the Alabama Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Division is to manage, protect, conserve, and enhance the wildlife and aquatic resources of Alabama for the sustainable benefit of the people of Alabama."

Have any of you guys ever done an internet search for "Animal Bill of Rights" or "Bill of Rights for Animals" to see if any of your ideas match up?

It's important to know where you stand on these issues.

Fun4all,

"Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries - The mission of the Alabama Wildlife and Freshwater Fisheries Division is to manage, protect, conserve, and enhance the wildlife and aquatic resources of Alabama for the sustainable benefit of the people of Alabama."

That's not what the law says. I won't cut and paste it, but you should read what the law really defines as the functions and duties of the Department.

Since those deer along the state line have been biologically proven to have a late rut extending into February, and Alabama will have no part of such deer.

What provisions have been made to keep those late rutting Mississippi deer on your side of the state line?

We haven't been able to keep them in. They keep running across the border cause they know they get 15 days of rest in AL. They really be confused if they start getting shot at over there too.

What about all our bucks?

I'm afraid with the does in heat on your side of the line and none on our side, all our bucks may rush to Mississippi in February and alter the buck to doe ratio on our side of the line.

We should probably put tags in the ears to idendity the Alabama bucks from the Mississippi bucks. Somehow we are going to have to keep the January rutting Alabama bucks from crossing over and interbreeding with the February rutting Mississippi deer.

I say if ya'll catch an Alabama buck trying to slip accross the line to breed a Mississippi doe in February, he should be shot.

It's the only way to keep the populations pure and rutting at their appropriate times.

Naa, just put up a fence.

Dr. D.,



First: seasons are currently being set for all kinds of reasons other than those defined by law. For instance, what are the biological effects of killing a deer with a gun as opposed to killing a deer with a bow? If there is no biological difference, is there a valid reason to set seasons according to the method used?

Second: biology is a combination of zoology and botany. If the state has a duty to regulate consumption of our zoological resources using scientific data to determine what is best for the animals, does it have a duty as well to use biological data to determine what is best for our native plant resources? Should the harvest of our natural timber resources on privately owned property be regulated according to data that shows what's best for each particular species, or should the "if it's hardwood it's down" crowd be allowed to consume the resource as it desires?

The effects of political science are an integral part of the decision making process in regualting the consumption of our natural resources. It is not purely natural science. Property rights, fundamental rights, and now, I suppose, animal rights are all involved. Should we also include botanical rights since it's biology and not zoology we're discussing? Hmmm!!!