BPI, I'd agree with your statement according to Ephesians 1. Simply being elect doesn't save apart from someone hearing the Gospel and having faith (Romans 10). I haven't studied Calvin, but those verses have been there centuries before he was born.

It's Calvinism 101 Mark. You know this. And again, it's okay. I'm not questioning your election or trying to be argumentative. But people in the thread are commenting about common grace as if it's special grace. I just wanted to clarify it for them and put it into context with the threads original intent.

Definitely not the same, that's why I mentioned there is a distinction between the two. I'd say I'm Calvinistic, without the covenant theology and baptism of infants. More Reformed Baptist. I'm convinced in the doctrines of grace and affirm the BFM.

If by BFM you mean Baptist Faith and Message, they are not specific concerning Sovereign Predestined Election. And I agree with you about infant baptism.

BFM 2000.

BFM 2000 Article V God's Purpose of Grace
"Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. IT IS CONSISTANT WITH THE FREE AGENCY OF MAN and comprehends all the means with the connection to the end."

Mans free agency conflicts with Sovereign Predestined Election, does it not ?

Let me reword my question as I don't want a doctrinal debate. Does the BFM 2000 as written here conflict with Sovereign Predestined Election as described by Calvin's doctrine ?

Freewill is not the same as free agency. Adam was the last man with absolute freewill. Because of him (Romans 5:12), we've inherited his fallen nature. We are moral free agents. We are limited by the sin that remains in our flesh until glorification. We can never truly choose what we ought to do. If we were completely free, we would always choose the right choice. There would never be an overweight person, an alcoholic or a drug abuser. Sin limits our capacity to have absolute freewill. https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html

Article Five is also consistent with the Reformed view of ordo salutis, or order of salvation. God has been choosing since before creation and still does. e Gentiles are left to walk in their own ways, while Israel is chosen as God's covenant people. Ishmael the firstborn is cast out unblessed, while Isaac is made child of promise. Esau the generous-hearted, is denied the blessing, while Jacob receives the inheritance and is made a vessel of honor. God could have sent angels to every nation and announced the birth of Jesus; but He did not. Instead, He specially revealed to Bethlehem, shepherds and wise men. God chose to love Jacob but hated Esau. Scripture also says that it was that way before either was born and had done anything wrong.

Free will and free agency are not the same according to Calvinistic doctrine. On that I agree. Point being that according to that doctrine, man has no willing response to the Gospel as it is already decided, ordained, and unchangeable according to this doctrine. You know where I'm going with this and exactly what I'm talking about, semantics aside.

And again, that's okay but there are those in this thread that don't know what this really means. So, I'd like to clarify it for them.

It means that no one has a choice in receiving salvation. It's pre programmed and already decided.

When you follow this doctrine to its end you hang the creation of sin on God. Calvin admitted it. John Piper admitted it . Any serious Calvinist admits it.

Is salvation a work of man by his own choice? Scripture disagrees.

God grants faith. "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

"in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" - Romans 9:23


"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." - Ephesians 1:4


"in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began" - Titus 1:2


Is God ever wrong? Is God loving? He is. So, whatever He does fits into his character somehow. And if it's hard for us to understand, that's not God's problem; whose problem is that? That's our problem, isn't it? Because we just don't have the ability to understand that. His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. His ways are incomprehensible to our finite minds. The concept of predestination isn't controversial. It is biblical truth.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day." - John 6:44

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters." - Romans 8:28-29

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." - Ephesians 1:4

The concept of God being the author of sin, and points being debated above were/are a point of struggle for me, because I don’t believe an inherently holy God will do that. So I’ve considered the concept that as fallen creatures we are only capable of I good through his power as the Holy Spirit dwells in us. (Otherwise we are sinful) So, in certain situations God may passively withhold a protective shield or guiding hand that is preventative in regards to sin. Perhaps that is not the active creation of sin, but passively withholding his own power in relation to our sinful nature.

This is not a completely developed thought on my part, and I am not equipped to debate at the level you two are. Just ideas rolling around in my noggin

A couple days ago, i said saved people should act like theyre saved and some on here said i was making salvation too complicated.

Even such great of a mind as Charles Spurgeon wrestled with this stuff. When folks state their final positions as though the conclusions are plainly obvious to anyone who is reasonably down the path of sanctification, they are not particularly persuasive. I think the concepts we are debating are towards the limits of what our human minds can grasp.

https://christianexcavator.com/2012...sovereign-grace-and-mans-responsibility/

Edit - this post was not directed at any individual. Just another thought rolling in my noggin

The reference to being too complicated was in regards to coming to Christ but the thread is still there for anyone who wants to read it. The Gospel is simple and definitely not complicated. Of course saved people should act differently than the world.

"God will take anyone just as they are and no one needs to worry about how they will live after they repent." Bill, this is the exact sentence you wrote. And i argued that a person should absolutely need to worry about how they live after theyre saved. You must be confused. But you are correct, its all there to go back and read. And i asked you where in the bible was the info you were putting out, you never did answer that.

Great post

Well JWalker if you took what I said about that thread meaning that I repent . What I meant was a man will start a thread like this hoping to see a lost person saved I honestly believe. In just a little while it turns into a theological debate .

An unsaved person doesn't need to worry about trying to know how they should live like a Christian before they become a Christian. God will take them as they are and they will learn how to live as God wants us to live though studying and the ongoing process of sanctification that happens in a believers life until they die. . Asking someone to have it all figured out before they come to Christ is something that isn't biblical or practical.

Nobody has answered my question yet….if you are a Christian and don’t ever repent, do you go still go to heaven?

But thats not what you said. You said" no one needs to worry about how they will live after they repent". And i say everyone should absolutely worry about how they will live after they repent. If person dont worry about how theyre living, sanctification wont happen, why would it if theyre not worried about it? Now you want to argue about what part of Jesuss life the gospel is?

You misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not feeding your need for attention tonight. Get it somewhere else.