All the corn talk, recent rule and proposed reg changes got me thinking. According to Chuckie Check, there were actually more bucks killed in AL than does this season. Personally, I think this is the biggest problem and biggest potential issue we should all be trying to address. Just some facts to think about:

Charles Kelly was the head of AGF&F for roughly 40 yrs. He led the restocking efforts back when there were very few deer in AL and did a great job with it. Once the herd was re-established and back up to a huntable population, his rule was bucks only, no buck limits, kill any bucks you want, just dont shoot a doe. Probably needed to protect every doe initially, but over time, this management of harvesting only bucks and zero does, created a massively skewed sex ratio throughout the entire state. By the time that doe weeks or doe weekends and doe harvest was actually allowed, the buck/doe ratios were crazily skewed to the point that in some the areas of the state, they were as high as 1:15 or 1:20.

Then the state adopted the DMAP program. A way to harvest more does outside of the state approved doe days, if needed. More does were harvested, but the unregulated buck killing continued at the same annual pace.

Then the state approved the wholesale doe slaughter and said, kill as many does as you want all season long. Buck killing continued at the same annual pace, only now the does were really being hammered too, and not as many buck fawns were being dropped annually to replace all those bucks being killed.

In 2007, the state adopted the 3 buck rule. Too little, too late. 3 bucks per hunter with an estimated 200,000 license sales and then you factor in the people hunting but not buying licenses, kids not required to have licenses due to age, and when the math is done, there in theory, could be as many as 900,000 bucks killed in a year if everyone killed their 3. LOL Might have saved 5000 bucks statewide. The guys killing 10-15 or more bucks a year kept right on doing it since enforcement is a joke.

In 2014, the state said you can no longer kill 2 does per day, now you can only kill one per day or only 118 per year. Another joke. ZERO impact on # of does being harvested. It just spread it out. Buck harvest still rolling right on along at the same pace.

In 2019, the state said, hey, since we obviously dont have the manpower to enforce it and we obviously suck at enforcing the no baiting law, and half the state is hunting over corn anyway, why dont yall just pay us a fat little fee and we will let you shoot deer over corn piles legally. More young dumb bucks being harvested in addition to the regular annual buck harvest continuing to roll along.

IMO, Alabama's deer herd has been mismanaged for the past 60 years or basically from the point where the restocking efforts got the herd back to a huntable population. The overall sex ratio for 90% of AL was screwed up to start with, by allowing a buck only harvest for 30 yrs under Kelly and has just gotten worse from there. Then we started shooting more does but continued to shoot the same number of bucks. With less does, dropping less fawns at a 50/50 ratio, there were less bucks available to fill the void. Then we limited the bucks to just 3/yr but that didnt really save many and with the continued hammering of does for years at this point, doe population is down so once again, not gaining any ground on increasing buck numbers. This does not even take into account all the button bucks being accidentally shot for does and being recorded as antlerless deer with all the doe shooting going on. Good rule of thumb is for every 8-10 does shot, one button buck will be killed as a mistake. Legalizing corn just puts a ton of 1 and 2 yr old bucks out in front of more hunters, making it easier for these young/dumb bucks to be killed. None of this even takes into account that natural buck mortality is roughly double (old age, vehicle collisions, rut stress, rut injuries, disease, and predation) what doe mortality is, so there will always be less bucks than does to start with, even with no hunting at all.

Now, with Alabama killing as many bucks each year, as does, and factoring in button bucks mistakenly being shot for does (generally accepted to be 8-10%), poaching and illegal buck harvest, and then the fact that the natural mortality on bucks is substantially higher than it is on does, with fawns being dropped at a 50/50 ratio, we as hunters are losing ground each and every year under the current regs with regard to the number of bucks available to harvest in the following season. IMO, if the state was managing our deer herd for the good of the wildlife and not based on $$$, the doe slaughter would be long over and the buck limit would be much lower, at least until we put more bucks back into the herd and the ratios and age structure tightened up. Then at that point, the overall population could be managed based on how many deer the state wanted to carry. It would be a healthier herd too. There's some really good hunting in this state, but almost all the really good properties are being actively managed by the people hunting them and most assuredly not by state regs. Just some random Monday thoughts.

Can someone post a summary? That's a novel.

A history of deer management in Alabama followed by we’re shooting too many bucks for the population we have

FIFY Harold

Thank you for noting my stat of 118 doe a season limit, and saying its ridiculous.

I think the Coyote factor needs to be included. That GA study showing a 55% fawn recruitment rate where Yotes aren't managed just makes the situation worse.

Well it's not as big of a joke as the 236 doe a season limit that it was at before the change.

Thanks Abolt- that took a lot of time and thought. Very clearly said and you make good points. I appreciate your Insights.
CNC- thanks for always starting threads that require thought and take a deeper look at Alabama deer hunting . Chuckie's Check in should add some of your stuff to their " management algorithm".
Lockjaw- I agree Coyotes are a factor. Deer Killed on roadways in our state seem significant as well, but maybe not.

I think TX and some midwestern states with short firearm seasons, 2 or less buck limits and doe tags are way ahead on improving age class structure and achieving big deer( bucks primarily). That said after hunting nearly 50 years with long seasons and liberal limits I am not sure want that restricted much more. I killed one buck I will shoulder mount in Alabama this year, did not shoot a doe but I think being in camp, being outdoors, having the opportunity to hunt from Nov-Feb is what i enjoy. I don't fish, golf, etc., so I am pretty serious about maximizing he opportunity to be in the deer woods. I could live with a 2 buck/3 doe limit as long as you don't take away the days within which I have to do it.
In my mind compressed season time frames would get more 2.5 year old bucks shot due to anxious trigger fingers because some folks cannot go as much as others for lots of reasons.

Let's hope the next governor feels STRONGLY about: Proper Deer Herd management/ buck and doe limits/ stopping baiting/ securing funding within state budget for full slate of game wardens( this should probably be #1).
guess we will see.

I grew up shooting nothing but bucks with limited doe days (5). The deer population exploded and I’ve never seen a shortage of bucks since the early 80’s.
Two does a day was prob a mistake but there were a LOT of deer then also. Enforcement of the laws we have now would be a start.
Better Enforcement of all the game laws would help.

They can't enforce the laws when there's only 1 warden assigned per county. I personally know several ppl that are killing way over there number of bucks and turkeys ea yr.

I know the answer.....Lets add 10 days to the end of the season state wide when in multiply counties the bucks are loosing their horns and does are carrying babies!

"Summary is correct!" and article above is pretty spot on from my experience in the last 40 yrs hunting pine goats.
If you use Chuckie's data then how do you think we're ever going to improve the state's deer herd overall?

Because of all the different stocking variants we will never have a one season or one harvest that fits the entire state.
But when you shoot 3 yr old bucks that all you do with them is cut the horns off and throw them in the barn your losing a potential trophy for later.

That 3yr old may be the biggest deer someone has ever killed or maybe some people don’t give 2 chits about trophy bucks. Maybe some people wants other people to do what they want on their properties and not worry about they do on their properties. Y’all remember that deer hunting supposed to be fun. It’s fun for me to see people with that excitement and big ole smile on their faces when they killed a deer. We had a 68 year old lady kill her first deer on our place this year. Guess what it was!! It was 1.5yr old 5pt. To her that was the biggest deer in the world. That’s what deer hunting should be!!

That 3yr old may be the biggest deer someone has ever killed or maybe some people don’t give 2 chits about trophy bucks. Maybe some people wants other people to do what they want on their properties and not worry about they do on their properties. Y’all remember that deer hunting supposed to be fun. It’s fun for me to see people with that excitement and big ole smile on their faces when they killed a deer. We had a 68 year old lady kill her first deer on our place this year. Guess what it was!! It was 1.5yr old 5pt. To her that was the biggest deer in the world. That’s what deer hunting should be!![/quote

Agree........and I'm glad she got it and would be high fiving not judging at all. I have no problem if it was a 2yr. old 10 pt. she shot, but then take a spike and another basket rack. How many you want? Buck a day?

I’m good with the 3 buck limit. I try to hunt older deer and usually will stop at 2 unless the 3rd is bigger then what I already killed. That’s my choice to hunt that way. But because I choose to hunt that way, I don’t tell others what they can and cannot shoot as long as it is within the law or our rules we all agreed on. Their deer their choice. If the deer makes them happy, we celebrate the deer with them. Y’all can say what y’all want, hunters will never kill all the deer in Alabama.

Very simple here....

Alabama's DCNR is managing the State's deer herd in the same manner we managed the Vietnam War... by a Body Count.

It is the epitome of lazy non-scientific can't add 2+2=4 kind of behavior. It's been going on since Day #1. And to think that we can't do better is a total joke we are the only State in the entire United States with a Free-for-all management plan.

It's completely ridiculous IMO. And to think we are spending all the License money on the administration this... a bunch of crap. Chaps my rear.

1 man ass kicking contest.... the entire thing needs to be de-funded, everyone fired and start over.

I bet Donald J. Trump would support this message?

Abolt ,,,,, way back when .... we had 15 does days to start with . We jumped to does days all season , then two a day .

What they should have done IMO was went to a 30 day split season on does for a few years with no does killed near the end of season

Call and report them. It's the only way to stop some of it.

Y'all say "do what you want, mind your own business... it's supposed to be fun...."

For who? You the doe blaster? That's pot calling the kettle black seems like you just want it your way because the "rules" allow it. If we really even have any rules.. which I'm not sure we really do if nobody follows them.

A LOT of folks out here who don't feel there is much challenge in killing a 4 point... they also have a right to an an opinion.

And Frack little 4yr old Johnny and his 10 point. That's a bunch of garbage = "Do it for the kids". Frack the kids if you do it right that's a non-issue. ALL the kids that hunt with me kill deer any grown ass man would be proud of. They don't need to shoot a small buck on my place because we aren't shooting the woods up. Give it a try. Kids are mounting their 1st deer who are hunting with me. If they aren't with you... maybe it's you who's doing it wrong. Little Johnny needs to kill all the spikes he wants because of YOU, grown ass men... YOU are screwing up the deer hunting. You can't let a 2.5 year old deer walk.

If this State doesn't get their mindset geared towards some age structure in it's deer herd..... this hunting like we are in the Wild West business is going to go on forever.