I know that we have a lot of wildlife biologists who read here. Does anyone have access to the studies that the TFT videos discussed last year that should be finished by now? I believe that they referenced studies in GA and MS on WMAs with a delayed start that had completed 4 years with no effect at all on poult production. A shorter running study in TN looks the same. These were the studies that were gonna show all the benefits of a later starting date, but instead it made no difference. I think it was the turkey guys at Auburn and UF who said that the evidence was mostly in that moving the season later wasn't going to make any difference to poult recruitment, but there was another year to go.

The results from that last year should be in by now. Does anyone know what it showed?

Here is a link to one of their podcasts; it may not be the one I am thinking about where they said that the evidence was mostly in and was showing no benefit to a later season, but they are interviewing the turkey guy from the MS dcnr and it's an excellent video. The thing that he said that really stuck with me was that they didn't want to change anything unless they had data showing it would be beneficial. He said he expected the WMAs with the later season to show that, but it didn't. So with no data, they have made no changes. I can only wish our dcnr had that attitude.

https://youtu.be/V4MRXhcrzIs?si=2ufa0yPpH8SX9HIs

Pretty sure the MS stuff is currently in the editing/publication process. Hopefully its out within the year.

From what I remember, they weren’t expecting it to show any change cause of how little they set it back. They mentioned that it wasn’t enough to actually make a difference, but hunters wouldn’t put up with that much of a change. So, essentially, they did a study that they knew wouldn’t show any change, but the hunters will point to it and say ‘see, I told you that changing dates wouldn’t change anything.’

Basically, the only thing accomplished with the study is more of a distrust of studies. 🤣

They moved the date 15 days, from 3/15 to 4/1. They had another WMA for a control group and they left it at 3/15.

You can listen to the link I provided if you doubt me, but the MS guy said very clearly that he expected the 15 day change to produce positive results; it didn't. I don't know how others will interpret it, but it certainly won't cause me to distrust studies. Your perspective is likely different, as we seem to have a different perspective on most everything.

The main point I will remember is that MS didn't want to change hunting seasons without data supporting it. AL and many other southeastern states chose to change the seasons first, based on a theory. If the theory is debunked, what are the chances that we get those days back? I think I already know the answer to that - zero.

It may be that changing the season to open 4/20 might produce more poults. I doubt it, but that wasn't what the study was about.

I thought their discussion in the linked video was real interesting when they talked about how the declines in turkey populations were somewhat in sync with when they were reintroduced. We have been talking about that here for years - turkeys are reintroduced into an area and the population soon explodes, then goes down after 20 years or so. It happens everywhere and it's just normal. MS and AL had their restocking done long before many other states, and we have already experienced the cycles that other states are just now seeing.

What are you talking about me doubting you? I’m telling you what I heard some of those guys say. Something about it would need to be setback to the start of either nesting or incubation(I don’t remember which off the top of my head). Nothing I said was my perspective, it was passing along what I’ve heard them say. So, your perspective discussion is with them, not me.

Preacher, on the southern outdoorsman podcast they discussed a study by the university of Tennessee that has been going on for 6 years. I can’t find the published research but here is a link to Turkey for tomorrow where they discuss the findings. Here is an excerpt:

“Dr. Craig Harper and Dr. David Buehler, both with the University of Tennessee, have led a comprehensive study of wild turkey ecology and management in five counties of south-middle Tennessee for the past six years. Their preliminary findings are both striking and encouraging. In brief, findings indicate low nest success and poult survival as a result of predation is limiting the population, and a two-week delay applied to the hunting season’s opening has not impacted any aspect of reproductive success. “

Reducing bag limits and pushing season dates back has little to no impact on turkey populations. It’s always been about predators and habitat.

Whatever happened to quail is what is happening to the turkeys

Why is it that March 15 referred to as when it opened. It opened March 20 for a long time and was moved back because of hunters jumping up and down. Just like the northern zone was April 1 and was moved earlier. It was April 8 in Colbert in the 80s and had a 2 week season and then 3 week season. Lauderdale was closed for 25 years due to over harvest. It reopened with a 5 day season. It now has a strong population.

After opening it earlier a few days and now has been moved back to or after what the opening day was in the 80s. A friend gathered all the info from when it opened earlier in Lauderdale and Colbert. Season as closed for some time and then reopened back to traditional time frame. It’s no different than what has happened this time.

Evidently there is long history of hunters wanting it opened earlier and earlier. Then there seems to be an adjustment. Hunter sentiment seems to be hard to handle.

I didn't expect an argument over what a video says when I included a link to the video. The guy being interviewed is Adam Butler who is Turkey Project Coordinator for the MDWFP. At the 1:09 mark in the video, he said, "Honestly, we expected we were gonna see positive results. We did not start where we've ended up in terms of our thinking."

If you doubt that's what was said, you can watch it again yourself.

If you will read my comment about our differing perspectives, you will see I was talking about your conclusion that:
"Basically, the only thing accomplished with the study is more of a distrust of studies. 🤣".

My perspective is that is false. I think these studies are valuable because they are trying to measure the impact of the changes that AL and other states have already implemented. And the conclusion so far is that those changes have accomplished nothing. The fact that the studies didn't reach the conclusion that Butler expected, and he is willing to admit that, makes me regard his studies very highly.

From what I’ve seen…..It doesn’t appear hens are failing to nest. The failure is happening once they are sitting and later

I’m sure in some of the most hard hunted areas both public and private some hens are going un-bred but this doesn’t appear to be widespread

Arkansas started late openers 10+ years ago and saw no marked improvement.

Weather, predation, habitat is the key. Spring hunting is the easiest thing for DNR to control vs the other three . It can be done with the stoke of a pen and costs nothing. So here we are. Kudos to Mississippi for not taking away opportunity for their resident’s prematurely.

Thanks!

I believe that these studies are showing that when common sense is applied to the known facts about turkey biology, the results are just as expected.

1) The size of the turkey flock is almost entirely dependent on poult recruitment.

2) A hen only needs to be bred once in order to be fertile.

3) A single gobbler can breed many hens, not only in a season, but in a single day.

4) It doesn't take a lot of gobblers to breed the hens, so legal spring gobbler hunting has little effect on the overall population.

My conclusion has always been that the only places where removing spring gobblers by hunting is likely to effect reproduction would be in places that already had very few turkeys. The simple solution is to close the season completely in those places, and that was exactly what AL did under previous administrations.

I expect the anti-hunting forces attacking turkey hunting to use the same techniques as the anti-gun forces. Gun control laws are passed and they never reduce crime. Their advocates never conclude that they don't work; they just say they didn't go far enough. The next law will work becomes their message, and they don't intend to stop until there is a complete gun ban.

The turkey hunting bans are likely headed the same way. Starting 4/1 doesn't change anything, so it needs to go all the way to 4/20. That won't do anything either, so the next step will just be the elimination of the spring season. It seems to me that Chamberlain is already laying the ground work for that. I've heard him say nobody would dream of hunting ducks during the mating season, so why should turkeys be hunted then?

Hunting ducks during the mating season most definitely happens in the wintering grounds. And on top of that….turkey hens are protected and generally harvesting hens (fall season) is frowned upon now more than ever. Another factor is ducks pair where as turkeys do not…..

They allow the harvest of hen ducks and it isn’t frowned upon to kill hens like it once was…..

Nailed it.

Here's a link to a thesis about the TN study:

Assessing the Effects of the Spring Hunting Season Start Date on Wild Turkey Seasonal Productivity and Hunter Behavior


TN Study

If you are asking about the MS studies I referenced, the MS season starts 3/15 and has for many years. They changed the start dates of the WMAs in the study to 4/1. It wasn't about Alabama.

I remember 3/20 being the starting date in Alabama during the 60s and maybe the early 70s, but it was changed to 3/15 . I believe that it was first changed in the mid 70s for counties that had a lot of turkeys but no fall season. I know that in Perry county we got those 5 days and Wilcox didn't, because they had a fall season. They eventually changed it to 3/15 for much of central and south AL, with a whole lot of exceptions for areas further north, like yours. I think they were just trying to limit hunting in places with fewer turkeys.

Did you watch the video I linked? I thought about you when watching the part where they talked about the inevitable decline some 20 years after restocking. My area had turkeys decades before yours and we experienced that decline in the 80s. I suspect that your time has been more recent, though it's good to hear you are seeing an upswing. Don't expect it to ever again be like the peak; it isn't normal for the population to go back to that.

PCP,
I’m not the one doing the arguing, so. .. I’m not talking about the video you posted. I’m simply telling you what I’ve heard others say in other videos about the length of time that the seasons are being moved to. The distrust has already started. If the start time that they have moved it to isn’t enough to make a difference as some have said, then the conclusion from hunters will be that, ‘see, we told you it wouldn’t make a difference.’ This type of thing leads to that distrust over time cause folks will reference this type stuff and be against it from the start.

TRUST THE SCIENCE

Ding, ding, ding.... we have a winner

Announcement: after 6 years of research, we have concluded that….the rednecks were right!!!!

I'm gonna guess fire ants on quail