When we ran our club that touched the north edge of bankhead, the rut literally lasted from November until February. We had northern deer come in early November and southern deer were toward the end, but the overlap from Dec 1st to Jan 1 was our best time.

Just to clear this up in the discussion too so we’re all on the same page……If we released 10 does with a Nov estrous from Bankhead into a high fence and 10 does from south Alabama with a late Jan estrous timing…….They would NOT morph into a mid Dec rut over time……That average only happens on paper. Females with a Nov estrous are going to give birth to females with the same estrous timing and the same for the Jan does. They do have the ability to shift some over time through does on either ends of those time frames being more successful at reproduction than the rest.

Is this correct??

Give me a little while and I've got a couple graphs in mind that I believe will help it make sense.

Well allegedly they tune off of each other. That’s been studied in humans, cats, dogs and all other types of mammals. When one goes into heat there pheromones released can cause the others, or atleast that’s how I understand it. The timing of that is suppose to be relative to the photoperiod. Which doesn’t exactly add up for does in heat in January and everywhere else being in November.

I think that study alone you mentioned Cnc would answer a lot of questions.

Yeah, I agree……There’s some things where we can look at the landscape and how this is playing out and deduce from it…..this or that has to be true in order for it to exist in the manner in which its doing. That’s where I’m coming from with these ideas. We can debate over the finer details of what is occurring within the individual female itself but it would seem that whatever the mechanism may be it HAS to be occurring within the female population alone……You have distinctly different doe lineages occurring, each with a hodge podge of sires.

x2

X3 Bankhead is a unique place. You should make a trip up here and hunt sometime CNC. Bring a gps with you.

So here we go with a visual aid…….The dotted line represents where the Bankhead doe herd originally expanded out to and maybe the solid line is where it exists today. I know its probably not exact but it’s the concept at play here that more important.

Like Matt said, for a long, long time the Bankhead doe herd has only been bound by the lack of habitat around the perimeter and they’ve had virtually zero pressure pushing back against them from an outside stocking source. Deer herds only “push” outward in a direction when they are exceeding the limitations of the habitat. So there’s been no push coming from the west.

That has changed in recent time though and it’s the reason why the line has retreated back some. In the last 25 years you’ve suddenly got another doe stocking source in the west beginning to exceed it limits and “push” eastward. Look at the bigger picture set up…..The Nov lineage has a low density interior population that’s likely held well under actual capacity by public hunters…….being “pushed” against by a much higher density burgeoning population from the west. This is where the roads come into play and serve as buffers…..They help to slow down the “push” in either direction through road mortality.

However, in our case here we really don’t have a roadway that’s going to slow it down much so the march eastward by the restocked herd is going to be completely dependent on the doe management and reproduction occurring on either side of the line……or buffer zone. That doenst bode well for the future of the Bankhead doe herd.

I’d say that the situation is really hinging on the doe management of those private landowners on the outskirts of Bankhead…..Are they thinning does and allowing “space” for the other burgeoning stock to move into??.....or are they keeping their properties at max capacity??......I think if that buffer line every retreats back to nothing but the low density interior then then fat lady will have sung.

Again…..the timing or if it happens is all dependent on how the management plays out from here. Its not a given that the Bankhead herd will persist into perpetuity just because its made it to this point.

If I had to guess……when we cycle back to periods (years) of prolonged drought is when you have the most potential to see movement of that line occurring.

I read your prediction a few days ago, I’ve been wondering what you are basing your thinking off of? Facts about a common rut, or just a suspicion? Robinhedd

Its just putting two and two together after years of first hand observations. I’m pretty sure I’ve got most of the underlying “dynamics” figured out for why things do what they do.......Key word most.....I dont pretend to have it all figured out.......yet.

I’ll say this from experience hunting the area.

Your dotted line and solid are spot on from what I’ve personally witnessed.

However, I know of two mature bucks that summered on the tract I hunt and both disappeared from the property just prior to the Bankhead rut. I, like you, assumed they went towards the Bankhead in search of early estrus does. However they were both killed ~ 2 miles from where I hunt in the complete opposite direction of the Bankhead. They went from a fairly rural and unpopulated area with plenty of food and cover and does, to a much more densely populated residential area.

I know this is only a sample of 2 but it’s the only 2 mature bucks I know of that summered on the property and were killed > 1-mile from the property.

I meant that I agree with Mbrock 😏

I bet there’s some weird buck behavior occurring in these areas compared to the norm and I’m sure there’s been a few that’s had their tales whipped.

A lot of what is impacting this “push” eastward and the resistance to it is likely occurring on the properties for a mile or so of width on either side of that road……How many does are being shot on this side??…..how many are being shot on that side??......Does one side have higher reproductive rates due to habitat??......Is the “push” eastward strong enough to overcome the road mortality thinning that occurs to the doe herd??......etc….etc……Its these factors at play that are defining how this plays out.

Again, major drought periods along with cold winters will likely be when that push to expand becomes the strongest and most likely to jump the road due to the high density herd really trying to spread out looking for limited resources compared to what they had been during the wet years.

I guess if there’s any silver lining to it…..it’s that we ultimately have a lot of control over what happens but the problem being that all of those individual properties are likely each doing their own thing and the result just ends up being what it is. It may just work itself out over time the way its going to no matter you do. Like I was saying, the overall setup the way it seems to be occurring doesn’t bode well long term for Bankhead….especially considering that you already have hunters reporting that the line has been retreating in recent times and “the bubble” is getting smaller. Do we just assume that it isnt going to keep retreating??

These same dynamics are playing out all over the state and it’s not just Nov doe lines and Jan doe lines bumping up against each other…..You have areas where early Jan bubbles push against a late Jan line and some where they mix………….or you have a Nov lineage against a mid Dec……and so forth…..We have a state full of a hodge podge of doe lineage “bubbles” pushing back and forth against each other in a fluid movement …..and its why we have so many screwy properties where they interact. It also adds to the stress that our bucks go through in many areas.

It's just a matter of how things have shaken out since restocking and what doe lineages got sorted out within each bubble. After restocking we let the herd expand across many areas then we drew it back down with the doe slaying era…. In doing so we drew most doe herds down inside their own individual bubbles defined by roads and habitat breaks and they each just reproduced and restocked from within each bubble for quite a while. After the mid to late 90’s we likely didn’t experience any more expansion of herds for a couple of decades and we still arent in many places…….so there hasn’t been any real “push” occurring between bubbles anywhere……What little push does occur gets knocked off by road mortality and everything maintains the status quo for the most part….especially if we’re talking about an interstate where it would take some serious “push” to overcome road mortality and jump that boundary ……Its really only where folks have stopped shooting does or areas with big plantations where there’s any potential to shake things up.


The bubble that the Yuchee SOA is in seems to be an interesting one where a few different lineages exist within the same bubble due to several different expanding lines meeting in that spot years ago. There’s other areas that were fairly uniformly stocked with does from the same stocking source and show more uniformity within bubbles……It’s definitely a hodge podge of different bubbles but there’s a method to the madness……Things like having big quail plantations at the center of a bubble pumping out does in a hard push outward, produces uniformity of those lines within the bubble……not allowing any encroachment from surrounding ones. This is the exact opposite of the Bankhead situation where you have a low density interior that’s likely pushing zero expansion and another reason the setup doesnt look good. These things all exist in a evolving manner to some degree.

Actually I agree with CNC. No deer ruts in Winston county until mid January now because of all the southern deer influence. If y’all really want to kill a giant plan your Bankhead hunts for MLK day and after if you want to see live rut action

Well played 😂

Deer are not Natural "Expanders" into New areas as Turkeys will do. If there is decent cover and what they sense as adequate food they will increase the population of these "Bubbles" spoken of to a point of almost starvation and or poor health conditions.

How do you know this?

Auburn University Research long ago. Deer are "Herding" animals and tend to all stay together rather than moving off in expanding flocks like Turkeys will do.