They either redistributed or died from rigors of the rut……..

If we as a group take out a significant portion of the bucks each year, the remaining ones are going to spread back out and fill in the holes. Bucks arent going to stockpile on one property and compete with one another when there are unattended does and resources next door.……As a group they’re going to shuffle around and redistribute over time. ……and the more competition for does on your place, the more it likely pushes them into these other openings. Herd dynamics are occurring on a bigger scale than just our individual properties.

When does this occur??? During the rut is one time period but I also think it may be occurring right after velvet shedding as well. There’s some shuffling going on at that time and I think this is also when folks “lose” some of their bucks.

You need more corn my friend

Many bucks will migrate during the mating season. We see it all the time on our property as we run cameras year round. We will have some nice bucks on camera all summer and part of fall then BAM - they are gone. They show back up late January.

The young bucks will also relocate as their moms will run them off. It's mother natures way to prevent interbreeding. This is sometimes disappointing because we put lots of effort in creating good summer habitat/food for deer so that they can raise healthy fawns - only to see the young bucks run off. If you want a young buck to stick around - you better shoot his mama. We also see an influx of 1 year old bucks each year that probably come from somewhere else.

I feed all year so mine stay around for the most part. I even have several more mature deer that have shown up this year. I did have one buck that was around 3 yrs ago every day. He never showed himself last year so I assumed he was dead. He's back this year.

I’m thinking that at least some of them may keep their summer range but shuffle their fall and winter to new areas.

The “mature culls” you have living on your property probably forced them out where they died from acute lead poisoning on your neighbors property.

Fairly confident the rigors of the rut don’t kill many bucks, if any, where I hunt. The buck to doe ratio is so skewed sometimes it’s hard to tell when rut has even started. Wish the rigors of the rut was more intense but most want to shoot bucks and not does.

Pretty cool video showing the time lapse movement of 15 adult bucks in central Mississippi over the course of a year. That light blue joker is covering some ground.

That's a good video for all those on here that think their deer know where the property line is.

The MSU study that this came from reported about 1/3 of the bucks exhibiting the behavior like the light blue buck where they radically change back and forth between two locations. I’ve got a theory for why they’re doing that………..

I think it probably started as a 1 ½ year old during the buck’s first breeding year. I think a portion of these young bucks have dispersed and set up home ranges in areas with very low doe densities. Notice the light blue buck appears to be living in a swamp I believe. When the rut kicks in that first breeding year there’s competition for what few does, if any, are in the yearling’s immediate area and they’re is forced to go searching the landscape trying to find an unattended hot doe. These secondary spots where you see them “migrating” to as older bucks are where they finally found them a piece of nookie as a yearling that they didn’t have to compete for. That positive reward implanted the spot on their brain and they return back to it the next year looking for the same thing……unattended does. For some reason I think they also have a tendency to travel there right around velvet shedding as well.

It's just a theory. There’s some reason behind why they’re doing it. It’s definitely not “just because”.

What you are describing as the rigors of the rut, is exactly what gets bucks killed by hunters, cars, predators, and disease. You'd be shocked at how many bucks actually do die from the rigors of the rut. They literally run themselves to death trying to breed all those does as they cycle in, some 3-4 times, before they finally are bred. A highly skewed sex ratio is very detrimental to a buck's health. Some do die from fighting but most of the rut mortality IMO is a result of latent sickness and depredation, as a result of them being so run down and in such bad physical shape, after running all over the world breeding does from Dec through Apr. in a lot of the state. In a well managed herd, with a large number of bucks in each age class, 70% or more of the does are bred first cycle, the remainder are bred 28 days later on the second cycle and it is pretty much over and the bucks can go back to feeding and recuperating from the exertion. In a poorly managed herd, it lasts an additional 2-3 months longer, thus prolonging the entire process. Bucks getting further run down, rather than being able to rest and concentrate on feeding up. Fawns being dropped later in the summer and early fall, in the middle of drought conditions and poor forage times, which affects milk production and recruitment rates. Another thing most dont realize, studies have shown that 60+% of the breeding is done by bucks 3 yrs old and younger. If all of those are being killed off early in life (3 buck limit, no real or serious enforcement of regs, piss poor age structure, piss poor trigger restraint like most of AL has), it puts even more stress on what bucks are left to try to handle the job.

I agree that what you are describing does put a lot of stress on bucks.

I was inferring that bucks where I hunt aren’t killing themselves fighting over a single doe.

I’ve had the privilege of hunting an awesome piece of property near the Bankhead for 23 years now.

When I first started hunting it the deer population was really low and there were two distinct ruts. One rut the first week of rifle season (Bankhead strain) and another rut around Jan 1.

In the early years if you saw 3 does on a hunt it was very rare but the rut was incredibly short and intense. It was almost like hunting a Midwest rut. You had to experience it to truly believe it. One hunt I had 6 racked bucks in the scope at the same time on a hot doe. Shooting does back then wasn’t even a consideration b/c they were so sparse.

Fast forward 22 years and the deer population has exploded there. Now we shoot 6-8 doe per year on 600 acres and it’s nothing to see 20+ doe on a single hunt and only see 1-spike during the same hunt. You are lucky to see one mature buck with a doe during the rut. Most of the time it’s a 1.5 or 2.5 yr old chasing does.

The early rut is completely gone now and the later(only) rut isn’t near as intense or definable as it used to be. Daylight rutting activity from mature bucks is very minimal.

I certainly don’t have all the answers for continually growing and killing big bucks but I’ve killed my fair share. I can say without a doubt that letting the doe population grow exponentially on this property has certainly decreased the quality of buck hunting.

Disclaimer- Baiting and cell cameras have also made it easier for the surrounding small parcel hunters to take out the young up and comers.

I can’t control what the neighbors do. But if I could go back in time, I’d started hammering the slicks sooner and harder even though the current population is still below the carrying capacity.

Folks that have never experienced hunting where the deer population was extremely low and then went extremely high, will probably have a hard time grasping this concept.

Just for some perspective.......the map we're looking at in that video is 36,000 acres.......If you just pull out the center section that really encompasses the area being used, its about 23,000 acres.

I’m guessing that you’re in a unique area…….This likely relates very much to the ideas about doe herd expansion talked about in the other thread. Basically you have two bubbles side by side…(technically one surrounding the other). One is the Bankhead doe herd and the other is the Jan estrous doe herd……It’s likely that 25 years ago you were right on the edge of Nov rut or rather the edge of the Bankhead doe herd……Since then its likely that the Bankhead bubble has gotten a little smaller and the Jan does have filled in the area where you hunt. It becomes a matter of which doe herd is having the best reproductive success or getting shot less. The reason the rut used to be more intense for you is because there arent but “X” amount of Nov does in that area. If I draw a circle that encompasses that herd…..How far away do you think that circle is drawing in bucks from the surrounding area where there are zero Nov does??? Where are your bucks going now in November??? Refer back to that video to give it some perspective. You’ve probably got such a poor buck to doe ratio occurring because a lot of your bucks are disappearing and getting shot during the November rut and there arent nearly as many bucks to come back the other direction in January to try and breed a lot more Jan does.

I’ve hunted these fringe areas myself and they can be real feast or famine type places to hunt. When its good its great….but when its dead, it’s a different kind of dead. You might as well just piss on the fire and call the dogs.

I had nothing to do with it!

The classic song says it all . . . Papa was a rolling stone, wherever he laid his hat was his home

It’s not rocket science. Even The Temptations know what time it is

We have a 118 doe limit, and a 3 buck limit, which isn't enforceable for the most part. I don't see how we have a decent age structure to begin with. Every club I have been in shoots every doe that walks out on a greenfield, and then people wonder why they don't see any bucks. And then how many buttons get killed, because they are mistaken for a doe? To me that is sort of like aborting babies, you don't know what you missed out on.

Even if you let them walk, your neighbor could shoot them. In a club, especially one that really doesn't manage their deer, people shoot any "legal" buck under the club rules, because they reason the next guy will shoot it. I let a nice 2.5 year old 8 walk twice last year, and then another guy in my club shot it. It's frustrating to try to improve things.

I got a pic yesterday of a buck I think I saw last year. He's added some mass this year. I found one of his sheds in a field close to where I have him on camera. But he was a small buck a let walk. I wonder what he will look like next year, assuming he survives?

I would not pay to hunt on a property where every doe that came in a plot was shot. I would also not pay to hunt a place where any legal buck was allowed to be shot. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of. If im gonna pay dues it’s gonna be on some decent land with like minded people. If I can’t afford it I’ll go as a guest somewhere and shoot what they want. But I’m not flushing my hard earned money down the toilet for that. What’s the point? Heck if you like the club life pay a small fee, leave your camper there and be the camp cook or something. Sit around the camp fire or plant plots or something. But why pay to hunt like that?

The frustrating thing about it is that there’s really nothing you can do. Going out to your place and blasting does isnt really going to solve your problem. Unless the Bankhead doe herd is experiencing growth and expansion pushing outward…..then you’re just eventually gonna fill back in with Jan doe lines and you’ll still be losing your bucks to this other rut just the same. We probably should have never restocked the state with a hodge podge of deer.

Now, you could go in a whay lay the Bankhead does for 5-10 years and have the surrounding areas stop shooting does and probably get rid of the issue. I bet a lot of folks would cry foul on that though…. I wouldn’t doubt if those doe lineages eventually fade away anyways…..just depends on how the bankhead doe population is being managed compared to the other doe lines pushing in on it. If the surrounding Jan doe populations are booming due to private landowners not shooting does and if public land hunters are keeping Bankhead does thinned down…….then it may encroach a little more and a little more until those doe lines fizzle out. It sounds like from the way you describe it that its only been in the last decade or so that they’ve really seen any pressure collapsing in them from the outside stocking sources. Just having deer present is different than having populations that are reaching capacity and trying to expand

That’s a little off topic but it actually ties in well with this discussion........And along with that movement video, it should make it easier for folks to see how herd dynamics exist on a much broader scale than most of our individual properties even if they may be 1000 or 1500 acres.

Let's go common sense.....

If you don't shoot any deer your buck/doe ratio will get a whole lot better. Naturally that ratio will settle into what mother nature intended and will most likely be does to bucks about 2 or 3 to 1. That's not 1:1 but workable and realistic for Alabama.

So.... then your bucks in general don't get as stressed during the rut. You see 30 deer per sit and 1/3 are bucks between the ages of 0-3yrs which you don't shoot. Just by the law of statistics this affords you the best chance in Alabama to actually have a 4-5 year old buck live on the hoof standing in front of you.... which you would want to kill.

Pretty much solves your "management" problems. You let Mother Nature take care of it for you and what you wind up with is better age structure which is the only way to achieve better quality bucks. Instead of having 1 deer every few years reach maximum size/maturity you now have several EVERY YEAR just by the laws of math.

When you read all this deer theory about this you have to take into account they are never talking about Alabama. They are talking about a different state with different limits on harvest. Most of these places can't blast a deer every single day. Understand that relationship between explaining to someone hunting Illinois that they might want to shoot a couple does vs. Alabama where you can shoot every doe you see. There is a major difference. In Alabama we have likely taken a sound theory and distorted it to fit our desire to have unlimited doe blasting.

100% of the time if you have "too many does" someone killed the bucks. There is no other pathway to this. You, your club members or your neighbors did it. That didn't happen naturally.... it doesn't work that way. That cannot be denied or argued.



To address the other point about young bucks leaving your property.... why do you care? If you have bucks leaving your property to get blasted by your neighbors I don't think you can do anything about that. Given that we are hunting in the Wild West of Deer Hunting regulations. What that means is this.... If you are in a situation where you have a pack of deer blasters neighbors.... you have to shoot even less deer on your property.

Shooting a deer to keep a deer on your property is stupid on it's face. You aren't keeping ANY deer on your property unless you have a high fence. If you have enough land where you can actually achieve this you wouldn't be worried about this in the first place... AND someone explain to me how they know how this yearling buck standing there will even turn out ... You don't know anything looking at a button buck. It could be a cull. So basically you just need to blast every doe......

Completely Stupid. If you can't hold deer on your property stop shooting at them.