I’ve been managing properties and collecting data long enough to notice some trends in harvest data that I don’t like to see. I wish I had more concrete data and evidence, but I simply don’t. Don’t exactly know where I’d obtain it either, because you’d need average antler scores per age class for decades over large areas. To my knowledge this don’t exist.

The question I feel like needs answering is this: What impact is legalized baiting, cell cameras and season extensions having on age structure and sex ratios? What I think I’m seeing is with the increased use of cellular cameras, a decrease in buck age structure is occurring. I’m not seeing or recording as many bucks in the 5+ age class. I think I know why. With increased cellular camera usage over bait, it has become quite easy to take deer in the 2-4 yr age class, that were somewhat protected previously. Not protected in the sense of any regulation. But buck harvests in general, used to be a random occurrence. You scouted, located sign and shot whatever buck excited you on that particular hunt. Now, for most AL hunters a 115-125” buck that’s middle aged is a deer they can’t pass up. A lot of these deer used to slip through the cracks. They are NOT any longer, because they’re on someone’s camera, somewhere, if not on multiple cameras. They are generally hunted until they’re dead. What impacts will that have long term? We know having bucks in the population that are older has increased benefits to the rut. It’s also an incentive for those desiring to kill a trophy. If the middle aged segment of the population is increasingly targeted over large landscapes, the breeding benefits of older age class bucks and incentives to manage property could easily cause lack of interests or desire to continue spending resources in AL. I know some of the taxidermists around don’t have as many older age class bucks coming in either. Racks that used to hold several 140-170” bucks a season are now holding a bunch of 110-130” racks. The ONLY difference is age class of the bucks brought in. Genetics hasn’t changed. However, the expression of those genetics has, as a result of harvesting younger deer. I think we are high grading as a consequence of technological advances and permitted baiting.

This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately because I see it being replicated in several areas.

I can’t answer your question but the obvious way to fix it is drones ,air bows, and letting loose pen raised-deer with superior genetics.

Matt I am glad you addressed this because you are absolutely spot on !

There's alot more hunters in the woods now days and they look at it as if I don't shoot it my neighbor will. I've noticed areas I've hunted for yrs that the population seems to have drastically decreased. We use to do alot of dog hunting in geneva cty. It was nothing to see 100 deer in the afternoon out riding the dirt roads dragging ditches to find fresh tracks for the next morning. Now days you ride the same roads and your lucky to see one standing in the same fields we use see 15-20 deer in.

The season is too long and we harvest too many bucks IMO.

Even with buck limit.

You will always have tow camps meat hunters and trophy hunters / game managers and that will never change so knowing this all you can do is put restrictions and hope most abide I’m personally in favor of one buck per season with at least four points in one side to be a legal deer. I know it’s not perfect solution but nothing is

Matt I think you are definitely inline with your thinking. I can tell you for a fact most deer that are 3 or 4 and even older bucks can be picked off with the use of cell cameras over bait.

Last season when we had a camera share program with the club members we had several bucks killed that otherwise would have most likely slipped through cracks. Several of these bucks were very nice 4 yr olds that would have benefited from another birthday or two.

How do you propose we resolve the issue??.......Kill less bucks…..produce more of them…..or outlaw baiting again?? I’m afraid the last one probably isnt a true option…..hell I’m not sure the second choice is very realistic either……If choice #1 is the only option that means a new buck limit.....I'm a fan of increasing "supply"

More hunters. What effect does that have on the things youre talking about? I think more hunters is a bad thing. But im a tree climber not a biologist and i have not studied the situation, only tried to figure out why im seeing what im seeing.

Stopping the feeding would save me a bunch of $$$ 🤣🤣

The feeding has helped kill deer

I sometimes cutt my cameras off for months - hav not run one in about 2 months at my big field

Hope I got a 8 year old buck around this year - he usually shows up about this time of year

U could b on to something MBrock

I agree with everything you said, and I’m guilty of it to a certain extent as well. I may not kill them over bait, but that’s where my cell cameras are and tell me the general area I need to be hunting.

A little off topic, but another thing that needs to be addressed is enforcing the 3 buck limit. Currently I can purchase my license online and print 3 copies. Now I have 9 “tags” instead of 3. We have zero game warden presence around me and everyone knows it, unfortunately.

I would think if you wanted to see more deer a limit on does would be in order. Can’t have a herd if you ain’t got the mommas to make em.

The answer to your question is to limit the doe harvest where people can’t kill 12 or more per year. seriously I have hunted some areas that can support high numbers of deer harvest and be ok but many areas don’t need many does killed at all and more and more people I talk to seem to be realizing this. Not every area or even every property are the same and can’t be managed as such which you know better than I. I do put out bait as do most of the people I know and I run several cellular cameras but none of them are fail proof. I honestly feel that bait and cellular cameras save more bucks than they get killed because people want the biggest. My bait and cellular camera saved a 10 point this afternoon. Bait and cellular camera’s are a tool just like many other things in our arsenal and any of them can be abused and most people with any sense can tell when things are not going in the right direction. Some people just don’t care and they going to do what they going to do regardless. Common sense plays a huge role in deer hunting just like in everyday life.

I would also like to address the issue I see with the 3 buck limit. Back when you could kill however many bucks you wanted during the season and no I don’t have any data to support this but I feel like the 3 buck limit gives hunters something to strive for in turn actually making hunters that would otherwise maybe kill one buck try and kill 3. Of course there’s always going to be the people that kill way more than they are allotted. But I feel like the 3 buck limit makes the average hunter kill more than they normally would.

I think the can of worms with baiting is open and where are the bucks? You just need to look at the blood trailing network for the amount of gutshot deer during archery. It is live grocery harvesting as that summer pattern they are just too susceptible to harvest. I am severly limited. I have one to go which I intend to be a good one. One day I will actually use a game camera but watching 30 to 40 deer rotate coming into bait with 10 to 15 or so bucks every 2 hours is really really different from all but a few glory days spent beneath and English White Oak 2 to 3 decades ago.

Personally the game cameras around me really demonstrate how much I sucked at hunting. But watching the behavior where deer will stand on one side in the wide arse open relatively speaking and spend 10 minutes to want to approach from downwind that is also wide open is just comical at times to watch.

Matt. I agree with you. Technology and baiting has changed hunting forever. We would all be lying to ourselves if we didn’t think $$ had a lot of things to do with the decisions made in this state. That truth is on so many levels. Especially if you have hunted in other states. Alabama just seems to squander our resources! All of our programs here seem so half assed! We don’t have a lot of public hunting areas. Not like many states do. And game wardens??? What a joke! I know the game wardens in Jefferson county. They are great people but there is 2 of them!!! Yes 2!!! I can’t imagine myself and one other person trying to stop poaching, spotlighting, game checking and all of the other BS in the whole county! It’s just crazy. With all the money being spent in this state on hunting, there should be about 10 wardens and 10 biologist in EACH county across the state! Then we would have accurate geographic info in the herds in each area. I personally want to trust a professional! Someone that knows more than me! Someone who has a plan. But unfortunately in Alabama. I just don’t see that happening. Our DCNR is laughable! I don’t know why but they just are. Game harvest, statistics, human behaviors, trends, technology, effects of baiting & many other things should be studied and the results should be published. Then we all could be educated on what we should be doing.

We will always have slob hunters that will shame us all. But to address the concerns you have, it must start with gathering facts! Then implementing a plan that can improve the situation. Then share that plan with the public. I believe a lot of people will listen. Yes, many people in the 1990’s and 2000’s got burned with the over harvest of does but just like the science of medicine changes regularly, the science of deer management changes too. We need to be informed of what to do to maximize our resources in this area.

I think you will see some clubs start to tighten their buck restrictions.
At my club we shoot 3.5 year old bucks or better. That’s been the rule for years. It’s a small group of guys and we are discussing going to 4 or older on bucks next year.
I know of another club that went to a ( 2 out of 3) criteria for bucks this year. I would think that other clubs are having the same discussions if they are seeing more high graded 2 year olds and 3 year olds getting shot.

I think all of this technology has brought people into hunting that would have never put all the work and effort into hunting with uncertain results of their time. I don’t know what hobbies these guys had before but it wasn’t hunting. I don’t believe season length is too long as has been said before you don’t have to hunt everyday or shoot everything you see. Alabama has a huge population of guys who work out of State or even the Country who are benefited by the long season as they are able to hunt more than one time in a season. I do believe we have an overall deer population problem which I believe is from the massive slaughter of does.

Matt. One thing you have to figure in .

MONEY ,,,,,

People now spend a lot of money to hunt. They want a return on the money. They're not gonna set in the woods 2 ,,, 3. Or 4 years waiting on a true trophy buck . Plus a lot of guys only get to hunt a few days each a year.

Hunting is changing its turning into shooting.

You have clubs that have rules but kids kill what ever. You can't manage like that. You let 4 kids kill a young buck or two look what's it takes out of the herd. Same people that allow this bitch about
What the guy next door kill.

Ever body here reads the same stuff we read if they can't see where the $ucking up is they never will.
R
Ever body in here knew when they permitted illegal baiting ever body with 5 ac was gonna bait and kill bucks , same with extending the season

Now I don't care how people hunt long as it legal.

And as I've said more rules we get the worse it gets

One thing that makes my funny bone tingle is the trophy group yelled less does were needed to fix the rut now they yelling more does are needed even though we have fewer bucks

But with all that typed , I think you thinking is spot on

OK , you guys getting bucks on cam and they're getting killed to young . Why are they , you have pictures to look at showing they are to young .

You know pictures can be used to show what not to kill.

He'll

Make ever body shoot a 243 so they have to see the deer broadside lol

Not just cell cameras, but regular cameras are ruining it. Social media and YouTube have given people the desire to get a buck and get “Likes” “”Subscribers” or even go after sponsorships. You can see plenty of pictures posted in “Trophy” groups of 2 1/2 yr old deer where the picture is taken at certain angles to make the deer look a lot bigger than it is.