/Dugout/: noun

1. either of two low shelters on either side of a baseball diamond where the players and coaches sit during the game when not playing




A Middle Ground


So let me start out by saying go Braves!!…..It’s been awhile but I was a big fan back in the day when Glavine, Smoltz, and Maddox played….That era gave me an appreciation for the art of pitching and how some guys make it a craft…..That’s a lot different though than how many folks on here have made “catching” a craft….totally different sport.



That being said…. I am all for the idea of… “the less regulation you have to impose the better”……BUT…..I also have the understanding of the need for some regulations to protect the resource…..and how strict that needs to be depends on a balance between the need’s of the wildlife and everyone’s freedom to hunt without the thumb of the man on them….I’ve run my own 1500 acre hunting club and I’ve been a member of a number of others over the years…..I’ve seen how the plantations manage and operate and I’ve seen how some of the better land is run….I take many of these things into consideration when forming an opinion….This is what I’ve come to think……



The best middle ground in the future IMO lies in the amount of gun season you would be willing to give up and replace with bow season days….. in exchange for doing away with most of the rest of the non-needed regs we have now…..Just a pipe dream I’m sure but just for chits and giggles this is what I mean by that……When I had my hunting club there was a lot of talk in year one about where the rules should be set on being able to shoot this and that…… as well as me trying to figure out what’s the best solution that insures quality hunting while at the same time keeping members happy and not having to deal with constant turnover…..I threw out the idea that…..hey, if you want to make it real simple and still accomplish the goals we all are wanting to accomplish…..then lets just make it a bow hunting only club and let the rough side drag on everything else……By going to bow hunting only you eliminate the need for most of those other rules…I don’t have to impose buck limit or worry so much about how many does, etc…when everyone is bow hunting…..and its very likely that doing that alone will manage the herd just fine without those other measure being necessary…..not always but it would in many, many situations......



The real kicker on shortening gun season and turning them into bow hunting days though on a state level versus a single hunting club is that you would have to likely decrease the gun days pretty significantly in order to get over a threshold where the same amount of deer don’t get killed anyways….Up to a point folks will just kill the same number of deer in less days due to being more itchy to pull the trigger when they have the chance due to less perceived opportunity….It would probably mean reducing gun days by half or more I bet to have an impact or manipulate them around the timing of the rut…… so you would be talking about a pretty big change but one that would govern all the rest……one ring to rule them all…..All the other rules would be much less needed….



Same concept for the state as the hunting club I ran….If you really don’t like all of these rules then lets just have one management rule that says were bow hunting only and let the rough side drag on the rest….Maybe not ONLY but much, much less gun pressure…..Now that’s just a suggestion but compare it to the alternatives….sure here’s 3 months of gun hunting and a 100 page book of regs to go with it…..or we could just go bowhunting and just have fun yet still have a gun season even if its more conservative…..Just a thought….I don’t expect us to ever be bow hunting only but maybe that’s the area where we can find a middle ground on the regs that would be the most reasonable and able to be accepted by all parties. See you in 72’…..

CnC

Wut

This concept is intriguing but with crossbows that are deadly at 100 yards its basically rifle season all season long now anyways, You would have to make it recurve, compound, or long bow only (which creates another issue for the elders in the club) or no baiting. I don't want to shame anyone that uses a crossbow because I know it brings more people to the industry because of its simplification but when someone can put a pile of bait out and set in a box blind with a weapon that can kill at 100 yards well then there's no doubt that's a game changing element that closely rivals a rifle in early season.

I’m all for setting it up like some variation of the Midwest, but you’d still have to have regs. Problem is, there’s too many people on this site that don’t like “government rules” as it is. They wouldn’t follow them anyway. So I’m sure there’s thousands more that are not on this site just like ‘em. Need more LEOs in green jeans to enforce the rule breakers.

Who ever told you crossbows are lethal at 100 yards is full of shucks

Ill admit I don't know if they're lethal but I do know several members of our club have r29's and can group bolts at 100 yards. They usually have their bait a lot closer than that but I don't see why they wouldn't be lethal with the broadheads of today at that distance.

They are absolutely 100 % lethal at 100 yards.

What's the use in special seasons for primitive weapons, when they aren't primitive anymore?

So, you can hop on an atv or electric cart. Quietly drive to within 200 yards of the 'shooting house', go inside & turn on the solar power, shoot the buck at 1646 hours. (Ya know he's coming then, by the pics with time/date that your cell camera sends you in real time. The deer come to the legal feeder, & get whacked with a super duper scoped xbow.... or at 300 yards with a magnum stainless muzzleloader. A muzzleloader you need a laser rangefinder for, no less...

Then, ya gotta jump through the dnr hoops & notify the gooberment your kill...then it goes viral on social media, so the worldwide web knows what a great pro-staffer you are.

Personally , I miss the old days.... before hunting became an 'industry'. Before technology made everyone a proficient expert.

The barnett I have is ok out to 50. These new Ravin,camx, and others are preset at 100yds once you get past a recurve theres no argument with any of it. Same people that bitch about someone shooting a crossbow will shoot turkeys at 80 yds with TSS.

Nah, not me. And I'm not bitching. It is what it is. I say we run em with hounds & shoot them with impunity. Dead is dead, correct?

Yep

Here’s something else I’ll throw out there even though I don’t know if it could ever really be quantified……actually come to think I remember Troy talking about some studies on this…..maybe it was on a military base or something ….but somewhere they did a study on bow hit deer and the rate of mortality….Basically it showed that the vast majority of deer that are shot by a bowhunter are either hit mortally and recovered or they live……I can tell you without a doubt from tracking that gun hunters cripple up and feed far more coyotes than the bowhunters…..I’d much rather go on a bow call for this very reason…..Its almost daylight to dark difference in the calls after gun season opens….

There’s a silent mortality rate that occurs from deer that are wounded by gun hunters, never recovered, but finished off by the yotes….I cant attach a number to how many but I get enough of these calls…especially during the rut…..that I feel pretty confident in it being well above the level of “not statistically significant”…..Just stabbing at it I’d say we add an extra 10% onto the kill totals through wounded gun hits easily….probably closer to 20-25%.....The bigger point here being that there would be a % of deer that would likely be spared that are not even being recognized as being killed right now…..For a couple weeks during the rut the bucks are getting “shot at” at a ridiculous rate…..

While no one would ever go for it…..simply just making less rut gun day would likely make a huge difference ….There may be some fancy crossbows on the market today but it isn’t gonna play anywhere near the significance that everyone toting a .300 has…..I’ve yet to be called out on a single situation where someone stuck a deer with an arrow or bolt that was over 55 yards…..and the 50+ yarder I have in my mind was shot with a compound……You can make these arguments about bow this…..crossbow that…..but the same thing is being done with 300 mags now…..and at longer ranges than the mystical 100 yard crossbow kill…..Just how many deer do actually think are killed from 100 yards with a crossbow each year?....Ok so Bubba over in Winston Co did it one time….its not suddenly a valid reason to compare it to gun hunting impacts.

Now the bowhunting idea can be implemented without necessarily having to completely do it through the DCNR……If a trend started amongst hunting clubs and private landowners where folks began to manage their own gun season dates more strictly and moved them toward more bow only……(bow only with 1-2 week gun season for example)….this and that….whatever each club or landowner decided for their place……. Just like “shooting does!!” ….the way an idea is presented to the public can be very influential…..or the trend to clubs being 8 pt or better, etc…..these are examples of how its possible either directly or indirectly…..That doesn’t necessarily mean its with malicious intent….you present a true but persuasive case for what you feel is a good solution….

I believe bowhunting to be a good middle ground solution…..We need to trend toward a true solution though whatever that may be and I don’t know that we’re trending in the right direction right now….It seems like were just going down the road of rule, rule, rule, yer boat gently down the stream…..While it would likely need a good bit of “selling” and winning over attitudes first…..I think looking toward less regulation but less gun hunting may be a better road. It would be a shock to the system to go to a more bow hunting oriented system but you could give folks back a lot of the things we have had taken away from us that we loved so much about Alabama hunting…..To just be able to go hunting without harvest sheets and call in data and threats from the man….and more of this that the other to make it work…….How about less instead…..a lot less…..But it means we as the hunters have to meet halfway with the solution and not be so stubborn headed as to think we can just run a “do whatever you want system”….and nothing but that unrealistic utopia is all we’ll be satisfied with.

Here’s my initial proposed season dates……Open bow season Oct 1 statewide……. Gun season Dec 24 – Jan 31……. amount of doe days during gun season flexible with region…..the End…..That would pretty much be the rules to govern “deer management”….no limit on bucks…..no limit on does other than what is limited by the amount of gun season doe days………any more future management would revolve around protecting the doe population….For example…..If we see that more protection of the does or herd population are needed then you could …… make Oct 1-Nov 1 buck only……..while still keeping it very simplistic……No harvest sheets or calling systems…..no number limits on each individual hunter or property…..management is done through managing weapon and season dates….Money previously being used for GC and other things being done away with would go toward Law Enforcement officers and the tools they need….maybe get them a dog per county for instance….


Now you’re without a doubt gonna have the crowd that starts hollering….”But I don’t get to gun hunt the rut….mine is in July!!!”……We cant micromanage the whole state like this and keep things simplistic at the same time though….When 95% of the folks have their rut fall within those dates….the 5% have to “take one for the team”….for the state as a whole….We cant make special rules for every micro area or we go down the road of complicated 100 page management rules….4 on one side at least 15 inches wide and that’s on your first two….your third and final buck has to be bigger with different rules and special tags to make sure you followed those rules and blah blah blah……or just go bowhunt ….The tradeoff for this small percentage of folks who’s gun hunting won’t fall within those dates is that they will most likely see an improvement in the quality of the buck hunting due to the rut being bow hunting only….That will help take away the sting while we all stay simplistic as a whole…..an agreeable middle ground….neither side will be able to have their cake and eat it too and things work out….There will need to be a few concessions on both sides….….

Eff it.... I'm gonna do what I want on my own property. Dcnr has lost my respect. It is plain & clear, that they will pimp out our natural resources for money