Same thing happened to duck hunting AR in the 90’s long before the internet and Duck Dynasty the Cache and White River bottoms became federal refuges and the chit show began. I left AR in the late 90s because of it. Sadly it was all public land before it all hit but folks were nice and respectful, that all changed when the bottoms hit the federal refuge system.

Arkansas was busy promoting Stuttgart was the duck hunting capital of the world and an 8 million dollar a day infusion of money.
Maryland was warning Arkansas careful what you wish for since they were losing Canada goose hunting prestige they once held.

Na man I have always loved turkey hunting and glad so many people enjoy it now days. I dont know anything about Dr. Turkey, but hope whatever he does helps grow the population in some way. If it does not well at least he tried instead of theeatening to beat someone uo who posts videos about turkey hunting on public land. But then again what do I know you are the know it all goat of turkeys so carry on.

I agree that nobody knows if this dr chamberlain guys knows what he’s talking about but at least they’re trying something to see if it makes a difference. Of course I’d be fine if they just made a nationwide 45 day season, all day hunting, and a 5 bird per state limit. I guess if they did that and we wiped out most of the turkeys everybody could get back together and regroup on another hypothesis. I can’t tell you that when we didn’t have a lot of hunting pressure around us we had a lot of birds, and I’m talking as soon as 3 years ago. Some stone cold self employed hunt every day guys got land all around us and now there are hardly any birds. There were 2 birds left on a block that’s over 1000 acres mid way through the season. I know for a fact they didn’t die from disease, they all got shot.

I'm here. Let's get started. . . .

Couple things you should know, I'm here to participate until productivity fades because I welcome discussion. I'll gladly discuss anything turkey with anyone but when someone doesn't like me "because of his face" then I really can't help, I'm having to roll with what I have. *insert the face only a mother could love idiom* I have never admitted to being perfect. I have made mistakes. I am not afraid to say I was wrong when necessary. I listen.

I will defend what I do because I know it has more positives than negatives. Notice I did NOT say it comes without negatives. Everything comes with some degree of negativity unfortunately. A bulletproof engine does no favors for the mechanic right?

There are essentially 2 rabbit holes we can enter when discussing social media and turkey hunting. Hunting Culture and Increased Pressure. These 2 topics may converge at certain points but for the most part, can stand separated.

The degradation of the HUNTING CULTURE specifically surrounding the hunting of turkeys was the foundation of the Pinhoti Project and that continues, always will. I watched daily as the traditions and values brought to this "game" eroded (I signed out of social media entirely a year prior to Pinhoti due to being unable to stomach the disrespect). The values and principles described by the likes of Tom Kelly, Kenny Morgan and Gene Nunnery were being neglected by newcomers (and some not so new) to the sport. They were making a mockery of something I held very dear. It was appalling. Then I realized they may not be totally to blame. The VHS tapes and magazine articles I learned from were nearly extinct. Mentors are difficult to find. YouTube was the craze and it was saturated with the mockery I was witnessing. And as it was put to me "you fight fire with fire." Social media was the most efficient vessel to deliver the principles that were being ignored. I aimed to serve up a platform that could expose newcomers to the sport "the right way"- this was my opinion of course but one I felt most passionate turkey hunters could relate to. I have done that to the best of my ability. The before mentioned authors were doing this very thing in their writings, warning us of the perils we would face if the principles evaporated in time and there were no morals to sway our actions during the Spring. If anyone takes issue with me inconveniencing myself with a God-forsaken camera for every one of my Spring mornings for the last 4 years in the name of saving turkey hunting, the traditions that accompany it and the principles that it should be practiced by then by all means- grab the gear and try your hand at it. It must be done; I hope you recognize that. Because as I type, I'm sure there is some idiot taking a picture of a dead gobbler in Central Park in front of now newly enraged anti-hunters or some hot bikini model kissing the face of a decapitated longbeard. Get started, there are no off-days. I could go on for pages here and I'm certain it will eventually be demanded when the critics that refuse to slow down and see the big picture scream for such.

I'll move on toward the next rabbit hole- INCREASED PRESSURE and double back to something I mentioned before that could be seen as hypocritical, goodness knows there has been enough hypocrisy thrown around as of late. I wanted a platform that could assist in saving turkey hunting, the traditions that accompany it and the principles that it should be practiced by- is the increased pressure doing just the opposite? Absolutely not. Has the attention of YouTube turkey hunting caused more pressure? Absolutely. Does the increased pressure fall solely at the feet of YouTube? I just don't see how that can be so. Mapping software is giving more confidence than ever before. It's hard to miss an application deadline because agencies are sending email reminders. License sales are up across the board including fishing. Outdoor recreation as a whole has exploded over the past 2 years! Just look around- you're hard pressed to find a kayak on the shelves. Rock climbing, hiking, and heck anything outdoors is the most popular thing. In other words, the people were on their way to a national forest near you regardless of their streaming preferences. I for one am glad some of them found their way to the hunting license counter. The bigger question is, why do hunters hate other hunters? Recruitment is a positive thing. I'll start briefly with the stereotypical response on why that you probably expect - funding through license, guns, blah blah blah means conservation dollars. More hunters= more money. The pot of federal money that is "runneth over" now due to gun/ ammo/ etc sales doesn't make it's way back into the states hands unless they have the sale of a hunting license to provide so it in turn can be matched. So the more license ALABAMA sales the more of that "free" money the agency has to work with. Okay, stereotypical response number 1 out of the way. And number 2- talking big picture- we are still a minority to the population. We as hunters are not growing as quickly as the population. More important than the funding, in my opinion, is the voice. The average hunting license buyer is growing older every year, there will eventually be a cliff. I hope this increased interest has curbed that drab, long standing statistic. It's easy to ignore because it is so "big picture," we don't see our hunting rights infringed upon in the south after all, while the rest of the nation has seen a steady decline in hunters the southeast has held stable or even increased. Kudos to us! A ban on trapping in New Mexico barely goes noticed in Alabama. A very similar law hit the desk to your east in North Carolina, a little closer to home. The whack jobs in Oregon just introduced a direct threat to hunting and then the clown administration attempts to "back door" us, attempting to make it impossible to travel across state lines with ANY meat or carcass. As I digress from this 2nd stereotypical response just realize the larger the voice we have as hunters of any variety the more insulated our lifestyle will be from the attacks that are sure to come.

But p!ss on all that right? WHAT ABOUT OUR TURKEYS!?!

Hey! I agree, I like looking at what's happening here at home too. It's easier. More relatable. Question, when was the first time you heard the term poult recruitment or brood rearing habitat? what about poult per hen numbers? Unless you were in the world of wildlife academia, I'm guessing these weren't words used in typical dinner conversation. If you're a concerned turkey hunter they probably are now. Who would be surprised to know that the actual production of wild turkeys has shown dips since 2008 and by 2011 the declines were becoming widespread across the southeast? I'm not claiming to be a biologist or researcher and I'm not talking numbers to make them ring only to what I want to hear. But what I did find alarming was this issue we are facing is nearly a decade old and I don't recall any fussing over it until recently? Why? These issues were put on the desk of directors many moons ago. One professor emailed me a presentation delivered at the Wild Turkey Symposium in 2015 detailing the exact issues that are now "mainstream." This poses the question, if turkey hunting hadn't grown in popularity (regardless of the how- YouTube, Outdoor Channel, Covid, passenger pigeon, etc) over the last few years would these same issues still be sitting stagnant on someone's desk? If the importance of the resource hadn't grown, would we even know we have a "supply" problem? I believe the amount of publicity turkey hunting is receiving comes with impeccable timing. Will I lose some opportunity due to increased applicants? Possibly. It's a price I'm willing to pay to have a larger majority concerned about and willing to fight for the resource I hold dearly. Case in point, new organizations such as Turkeys for Tomorrow don't spring up without a motivated base and the National Wild Turkey Federation doesn't right itself from a multi-million dollar sinking ship without a powerful foundation. I am willing to make sacrifices to ensure that foundation is solid and growing. I like turkey hunters growing in numbers and in motivation. It's turkey hunters who will continue to ask questions until this "supply" issue we face is resolved. I'm also appreciative that avenues such as social media are available to help keep me aware of the problems, the scientific findings, some possible answers or even more questions we could be asking. With enough concerned voices we're sure to stumble upon the correct answers. I also really like that "our" enthusiasm has proven effective in holding some organizations accountable. I see this as a trend that will continue with an informed group of concerned hunters.

My response to the shortened season? Dislike. And here comes an explanation with a lot of "buts" in it. I hate watching opportunity vanish but do applaud the agencies for "doing something" and this appears a stand alone option for now. And as mentioned before, I am willing to make sacrifices. In the same breath I wish we had more answers. I saw shade cast toward Chamberlain- a researcher that has devoted his career searching for funding (and interest) to finding answers that for the longest period no one seemed to want. Now, everyone wants them. But, if we wait on those answers will it be too late for our resource? I become frustrated when other options aren't put on the table to reduce disturbance and harvest. Why are many WMAs so road happy? Lock the gates- widen the roads to alleviate the shortage of brood rearing habitat and "throw away the key." But that is still playing small ball, the majority of turkeys and turkey habitat lies in the hands of private landowners. Can we incentivize timber companies? They hold a lot of property. Why can't NGO's promote more predator control? Why are politics so heavily involved in the decisions that are affecting our wildlife (baiting)? Why can't we mention altering the methods used to kill turkeys without being attacked? Is over harvest really an issue? If eggs are fertilized, does it matter how many we kill? Regardless of how many males we have left in a population post season, I can't see that causing hens to carry 4 poults versus 1 to adulthood. Maybe there is a correlation I am unaware of (very possible). With the increased attention, lets hope we can get the brilliant minds among us to initiate research so we have a bit more solid ground to stand on. I do believe other options exist.

As a more of a "me" perspective; please realize I love wild turkeys. I hunted them for the same number of mornings before Pinhoti Project was a thing as I do now. I didn't work to save nearly as many then as I intend to now. I didn't realize I needed too, much like many I assume. I'm realizing now as a turkey hunter my responsibilities extend further than abiding by my self-assigned principles. I am realizing the cost of my hunting license and a $35 NWTF membership isn't enough. My price of admission was inadequate. I wake every day prepared to work as hard to save turkeys as I do to kill them during the Spring. Will I ever be able to convince some of you that is true? Unlikely. But I refuse to worry myself with those wanting to point fingers and play the blame game- I don't find it productive for the resource. I'm here in this forum because I care. Not about Dave Owens or the Pinhoti Project but about the message that social media has the power to carry to work for positivity for hunting and specifically turkey hunting.

I have just scratched the surface, I am aware. There are pages worth of side streets we could go down. So go ahead. . . let the bullets fly. Which side street would ya'll like to navigate first?

Strong post. 👍🏽

Dave, good post imo. I enjoy your videos and even donate to the KT Team now because of your videos. I imagine many others have begun to spend their time and money to support groups like them that we would otherwise have never heard of. Please continue helping and videoing those special hunts as often as possible.

meh

Thanks for showing up. I hope folks can keep this productive.

I look forward to the conversation

Appreciate ya! The annual PULL for the KT TEAM sporting clays shoot is weekend after next week. If you or some buddies want to partake let me know!

Excellent post. Thank you Dave

Dave, to your first paragraph. I agree the (old school way was disappearing) and needed to change.

However the old way wasn’t disappearing because people didn’t know how to hunt that way, like you said it’s a full on culture change. We are in the instant gratification generation. These new guys aren’t watching your videos on how to hunt, they are looking for where to hunt!

So, while trying to show people the right way, I feel mostly the videos just showed people it was possible. It brought out thousands of people to the sport that don’t want to hunt the old school way! All the new people attracted are mostly hunters that go against what you was trying to accomplish!

Your videos showed the same people of the (new culture) confidence in trying public land.

There’s many like me who are definitely guilty in the sense of watching your hunts, however the ones like me were already hunting and being involved. You just gained views from my or should I say our kind as we were already on the same hunt style opinions. The NEW people youve drawn in are on the new culture side.

This is why the restrictions are coming in the form of opportunity not weapon restrictions, Jake restrictions or decoy restrictions. (Just a few examples)

Thanks for sharing your side Dave. I think you'll find a majority of the finger pointers are just negative by nature. If you look at some of their post history they rarely have anything positive to say. I look forward to many more of your videos.

Says a lot about you to show up and try to dodge some of these “stones” that have been hurled at you. I agree with some, such as increased pressure that all youtubers bring. It’s possible it could’ve happened without it, but it sure didn’t help. Sure seems that duck hunting got so popular and went down hill after “Duck Dynasty” advertised it so much, along with ducks unlimited, etc etc. It doesn’t seem that duck recruitment has changed much for the good and the amount of hunters I bet has quadrupled at least since the 90’s.
The personal attacks? Well, we already know what we need to about those people.
The worst part about increased pressure to me is, I don’t know that we can change the guys sticking a decoy in a field they’ve had pictures of gobblers in for the last month and killin the fool out of them day after day. Now, that’s a legal way to hunt, and anybody that says anything about it is just a “holier than though” asshole. It’s hard not to think that lack of gobbling doesn’t come from a lot of this going on. I hate more rules and regs, so I don’t make to make it illegal, I just wish people wouldn’t go kill turkeys to see how many they can take pics of and post on social media and act like they’ve done something more than monitor a camera, spend money on scratch feed, and pull the trigger when he comes running across the food plot. It just doesn’t seem to be the “right” way that I learned….which is just another opinion. Hopefully you can have some good conversations and see both sides and maybe take something helpful away.

I used to always look forward to your “recaps” on GON 15 years ago. You and DJ were my inspiration to begin the public land super slam. When you started pinhoti, I was all aboard, because the content was relatable. At the time, I didn’t realize the repercussions that were to come. I’d imagine you may be in this same boat. I’m not one to call names, or pretend to know your motivations.

So here is the problem. Your intentions may have been to showcase the correct way to pursue these birds. It didn’t work. The new people are largely more worried about their social media pictures of fanned out gobblers, than the way they got them there. The old people hunt how they always have. The difference is this. You and THP have now given both groups the roadmap and incentive to travel in droves. When you combine that with Covid allowing those folks the freedom to travel, we’ve got a perfect storm. Think back 10 years ago. You and I both know plenty of fanatical turkey hunters in Georgia and Alabama. How many of them travelled and hunted public land? Almost none. You had certain people that would run to Texas or Nebraska every year and hunt private land, but otherwise stay in their home states. Today? You can be dang near to Canada in may, and there’s more people from Mississippi hunting than there used to be total hunters over the entire season. Places tend to be specifically harmed, when y’all showcase them. I’m sure that is part of the reason Chubbs has jumped off the bandwagon. His backyard has been showcased by you, catman, THP, the untamed, etc. As you know, there’s 10x the oosers now, compared to 5 years ago. Same for a lot of specific states.

So, at what point does the negative overtake the positive? Is it when our opportunities are cut back, because of record out of state pressure? Is it when you are dang near to Canada in late may, and can’t find a place to park because of all the Mississippi tags?

If I really saw an influx of new hunters who revered a long beard like I do, I could get on board with you. If I saw public lands being added, or turkey habitat being better managed because of license sales, I could get on board. But neither of those is happening.

I don’t blame you, or really expect you to step back. Your livelihood is now tied to continuing to believe, that the positives of Pinhoti outweigh the negatives. I really believe that you’re having the opposite effect than what you intended. These migrating masses of hunters, may kill turkey hunting culture forever. As opportunities become more regulated, public lands become more crowded, and hunter satisfaction diminishes, I fear that places like Alabama and Georgia will soon have the turkey culture of Idaho or Maine.

I appreciate the response and truly believe in the beginning the intentions were pure to some degree. However, it’s not worked the way you thought and that is apparent. It wasn’t anti-hunters or big city liberals that would take away our hunting opportunity and specifically public land hunting opportunities …….it was our very own. Men have been traveling the country for years hunting turkeys and keeping it under their hat. Turkey hunting is secretive by nature (or was). Now I’m not sure we can undo what’s been done. I know statistically we can look at license sales and specifically non-resident license sales since the rise of pinhoti project and thp the connections is easily made… the data is also clear to game managers around the country.

I think technology has played a big part. Turkey hunting, when done the way us older folks do it, was hard. It was secretive. Your best buddy would give you a night with his wife but he’d be damned if he would give you the whereabouts of a gobbling turkey. This is what made turkey hunting great. Now with OnX and a few cell cameras you can hunt from the a/c in the camp house and know exactly when you need to get off the couch while watching Pinhoti Project on YouTube. Sorry Dave, that last part was too easy.

Although irreversible damage has already been done thanks to the YouTube, one the main arguments against could be somewhat mitigated by one simple action:
QUIT NAMING STATES.

If you are in it to save the culture of turkey hunting, the decision should be easy. Why does it matter what state you are in?

Although increased public land pressure doesn't fall "solely" on YouTube, it falls majorly on it. OnX maps and COVID doesn't cause people to hop in their vehicle and drive directly to the region or even national forest or WMA that their favorite YouTubers hunt. YouTube causes that. Your own former sidekick admits it in a podcast. What is even more ironic is when these same turkey hunters who are following their YouTubers dress like them, wear the branded hats, and even have the stickers on their back glass. No, you can't blame OnX and COVID for that. When specific WMA applications see 40%+ rises in a single year due to YouTubers hunting there the year before and other WMAs in the state didn't see near that much of an increase, that ain't OnX and COVID.

When south zone Florida non-resident WMA quota applications see a 230% increase from 2018 to 2021, and WMAs in particular that you hunt on see the largest non-resident application increases (750%+), that ain't happenstance.

More hunters is more money for the state. But when the majority of those turkey hunters are now hunting on public land, we run into issues that can cause reduction in opportunity. Verbatim from a Georgia DNR biologist "Because hunting pressure is greater on public lands, we opted to make that opening date closer to peak incubation, which occurs around the second week of April in Georgia". I spoke with an Alabama DNR biologist who basically said the same for Bama's new statewide regs and 1:00PM closure.

So the Georgia public land hunter just lost at least a week off his season. Possibly more since new draw hunts have been established on popular WMAs for 2022. Why are draw hunts established? We all know the answer. If a Georgia or Bama hunter relies solely on public land to hunt, does statewide poult recruitment or brood rearing habitat really mean much to them? They can't manage the habitat on their public lands. Sure, they can trap a little, but that ain't really gonna change much. One thing that has changed though is major reduction in their hunting opportunity due to overexploitation of our public lands at dimes on the dollar.

You will "possibly" lose some opportunity? You already have, bud. Your south zone Florida WMA quota hunt days are nearing an end. You will now have to be drawn to hunt early season in Mississippi. Bama, 1-2 weeks lost on public lands. Georgia, already covered. The only difference between you and everyone else is that you can just hop in your truck and drive on to next state when it opens. What about the average working man who has a family and can only hunt on weekends and can't afford to travel? He would have been a hell of a lot better off without YouTubers screwing with his hunting, even with less turkey hunting revenue coming to his state DNR.


With that out of the way, we agree on 90% of issues:

You have in fact inspired some people to show a lot more respect for the wild turkey. On the other hand, you've inspired just as many to make it a numbers game.

You have helped spread light on the current issues facing wild turkey. On the contrary, many of your and THP's die-hard followers haven't been hunting very long and are part of this "The sky is following!" crowd because they came on board when turkey were doing better and they haven't hunted long enough to see the natural fluctuations in populations. This is also the same demographic that is very vocal on social media and actually aiding in reducing our turkey hunting opportunity. These new hunters got their public land bird(s) when times were better, but a bad hatch or two makes it difficult for them to #taggedout.The fact of the matter is, Mother Nature has always played a major role in turkey populations and we aren't going to change that.

There are a ton of research questions that need to be addressed before we go to slashing away opportunities. There are other avenues to save as many (if not more) gobblers from death other than season/bag limit reductions. This is easily agreed upon, but much more difficult to get action. And for all of our sake, I sincerely hope you, TFT, or ANYONE can get movement on it.




So to wrap this all up, why can't ya'll spare future reductions in public land opportunity by just quitting naming states? It'd be a valid compromise for all.


Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this combination of perfect storms causes us to lose turkey hunters. When folks get tired of overcrowded public lands, rising lease prices (due to turkey hunters having to have access to private to hunt their state's entire season), opportunity reductions and more restrictions.....Some will in fact gave it up! And I hate to say this, but I'm already looking forward to that day. I'd rather have less turkeys and a lot less turkey hunters than the crap show public lands/traveling turkey hunting has turned into since the YouTube/social media "hunting influencer" era came about.

Here's a novel idea, if it's within the regs, why don't the social media guys buy a trapping license and hit the WMA's etc during furbearer season and run a line for nest predators ? Then promote that idea, publish it. Maybe some followers will take it up and do the same. Combine it into a scouting/trapping trip to add personal value. A side benefit, is that increased license sales and trapping equipment sales leads to increased P-R funds available to the states.

I'm seeing more private lands guys wanting to learn trapping and start setting steel. You're not going to make any money doing it, but every brood that is successfully hatched gives at least a small chance that there's one or two gobbling birds make it. As recruitment expands so does hunting opportunity.

I’m not gonna write a book though I could. I fell in love with Dave’s videos way before the Pinhoti Project because he chased turkeys “right” and inspired me to work to be a better caller. I haven’t been doing it as long as many on here, but I am a self-proclaimed “Lord’s annointed” as Mr. Kelly would say. I have a very deep admiration for God’s creation of the wild turkey, I killed em every way possible when I started, and it didnt take me too long to dive headlong into adding ethics-only based rules to myself on how I was gonna pursue them. I bet my mentor would testify that when he and I had a short-lived dabbling in fanning up turkeys for the first time and killed a few that I called us out on what a shortcut/lessening/instant gratification/cheating way of killing such a majestic creature that it was. I only use that as a single example to say that I humbly believe that I “get it”as a whole.

With all that said, I honestly believe that you have tossed the pearls of what we do to the swine Dave and they have trampled and crapped all over them. I do believe you had the best of intentions when you started Pinhoti, with a worthy goal of overshadowing the aforementioned methods and cheapening of turkey hunting. Unfortunately, in the sorta necessary evil of promoting yourself (social media etc.) in order to be able to do it, the pigs care not about how you killed him. But this self-worshipping culture that we live in LOVES to get behind his dead arse, smoke a cigar or put one out right by his beautifully colored head, hold them spurs up to the sky background (even if they shot him out of the damn truck or from behind a fan), and rush to post it on social media. WAY more about the attention they seek than what it is really about. IE they have attached to the worst part of what you do instead of the good. And you are doing WAY more damage than good IMHO.

Maybe the state should allow us to trap on WMA during turkey season. It’s open state wide on coons and coyotes and would be taking them out at the perfect time. Right now you have to stop Feb 28 which makes no sense and very few people do it.