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Re: If you wrote in [Re: ] #2329696
12/13/17 05:57 AM
12/13/17 05:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
N
NWALJM Offline
10 point
NWALJM  Offline
10 point
N
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL

Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: bobwallace
To everyone trying to change the non-voters minds, you are wasting key strokes. Just a PSA.


It's about as tough as changing a Trump supporter's mind about Trump beers


So you dont like Trump either? Did you vote for Hillary then?


No because that would be inconsistent with everything I've just said. I wrote-in Evan McMullin.

Re: If you wrote in [Re: TickaTicka] #2329699
12/13/17 05:57 AM
12/13/17 05:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
N
NWALJM Offline
10 point
NWALJM  Offline
10 point
N
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
Sorry Ticka, not getting over what's most important to me, even if it doesn't fit the idealogy of someone else's view on voting, politics, etc.

Re: If you wrote in [Re: NWALJM] #2329703
12/13/17 06:00 AM
12/13/17 06:00 AM

O
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
O


Originally Posted By: NWALJM

Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: bobwallace
To everyone trying to change the non-voters minds, you are wasting key strokes. Just a PSA.


It's about as tough as changing a Trump supporter's mind about Trump beers


So you dont like Trump either? Did you vote for Hillary then?


No because that would be inconsistent with everything I've just said. I wrote-in Evan McMullin.


you idiots who write people in are as dumb as a bag of rocks.

How many of your "Write ins" won?? EVER?

Oh thats right..NONE! loco rofl slap

Re: If you wrote in [Re: William] #2329706
12/13/17 06:02 AM
12/13/17 06:02 AM

O
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
O


Originally Posted By: William
Originally Posted By: 257wbymag
You're an asswipe. That's all



I posted this on another board that I frequent. Since it applies here, I felt like I should repeat it:


Quote:
This is the worst kind of logic. I hear it the most since I'm a Libertarian and either write-in or vote directly for a third party in nearly every election. Let me explain to you why you're wrong.....

I voted for Ron Bishop yesterday in the Alabama election. I literally wrote, Ron Bishop (Libertarian), on my ballot. I know this because it was me that did it. Now, here's the hard part, that vote was actually for Ron Bishop and NOT whomever you did not want to win that won. This seems to be a hard concept for some to grasp. I think it has to do with the logical fallacy that there are really only two choices and a choice for anything other than those two perceived choices are actually a vote against which ever choice you have chosen.

I hope this has helped you. In the future, instead of belittling or attempting to guilt third party voters into voting for your candidate, might I suggest running candidates for office that don't suck balls? Roy Moore is the creepiest of creeps and twice removed religious zealot judge. He's a clown of the first order that I wouldn't elect to Dog Catcher in Jasper, Al.


OK William, no offense..but answer honestly.

How many of your "WRITE IN CANDIDATES" EVER WON??

Ron freakin Bishop!?!??? who has even heard of him.

I know the answer already..NONE.

To me that is just stupid as heck. Just flushing a vote down a toilet imo.

I couldnt even imagine just writing in someone who didnt stand a chance of winning. It is ILLOGICAL to me.

Last edited by outdoorobsession; 12/13/17 06:04 AM.
Re: If you wrote in [Re: NWALJM] #2329708
12/13/17 06:02 AM
12/13/17 06:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,571
McCalla
H
hoggin Offline
10 point
hoggin  Offline
10 point
H
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,571
McCalla
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
I did not vote yesterday. I'm sure plenty here feel that is the worst thing a person could do, and I understand that. I used to feel that way too. But here's why I did not vote. First of all, I am a Christian and I hold to the convictions of my faith strongly. I have never believed that Roy Moore's antics (going back to the 10 Commandments issue) were rooted in his deep commitment to his faith or his convictions. I have always believed it was grand-standing for political gain. Doing that is essentially whoring out Christianity for your own needs, wants, or desires. Even before all of the alleged stuff with being a creep toward teen girls years ago, I did not feel good about voting for him.

Doug Jones, it is very simple. The man is running for office for a party that openly embraces murder of unborn children, and he himself supports it. I will not ever vote for a candidate that is tied to that.

So, I was left with choosing to vote between 2 candidates who both violated my faith-based convictions or writing in a candidate, which is waste of time. I believe that holding strongly to my convictions is more honorable than going to place a vote for someone who violates them. I understand that men have fought and died in battle over the centuries to preserve our way of life that includes freedom to vote that some nations do not have. I'm sure those same men did not also wish to fight and die so that their fellow countrymen years later would have to decide between candidates that both violate their consciences and convictions.

I will also add, that I will NEVER vote for someone who violates my convictions just to push a political party through. If the Republicans want my vote, stop putting terrible candidates out. That's my message.




Do you carry those same tow the line convictions when you never over eat, gossip, judge you neighbors, drink to much, smoke, dip, chew, lust, curse, speed, lose your temper or on the other side
Put your needs aside to spread Gods word daily, serve the needs of others never skip church to hunt, fish, nurse a hangover, go on vacation
I could go on and on but you get the point, and yes, were all guilty of being "better Christians" when it's most convenient or gives us a self righteous platform, its human nature

If you can honestly say that you consistently apply those values and never slip, I would support your decision whole heartedly, but it ain't likely to be the honest answer

Last edited by hoggin; 12/13/17 06:13 AM.
Re: If you wrote in [Re: 257wbymag] #2329723
12/13/17 06:08 AM
12/13/17 06:08 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,437
bham
C
crocker Offline
10 point
crocker  Offline
10 point
C
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,437
bham
I just saw where the demos are going to slow roll vote on tax bill if they can until jones takes seat.... And this is how your vote in Alamama can affect everyone

Re: If you wrote in [Re: 257wbymag] #2329727
12/13/17 06:10 AM
12/13/17 06:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 37
Mobile,AL
B
brim54 Offline
spike
brim54  Offline
spike
B
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 37
Mobile,AL
So let me get this straight in todays times you can accuse whoever you want for whatever with no actual proof and ruin their career. Welcome to new age politics this will happen again I can almost assure you. We all know if it wasn't for the allegations of those women we wouldn't even be having this conversation Moore would have won by 25-30 points. Let me say I voted for the Republican party even though Moore wasn't my choice because I just cant see how you could ever call yourself a conservative republican and ever vote for someone like Doug Jones and the things he believes in.

Last edited by brim54; 12/13/17 06:11 AM.
Re: If you wrote in [Re: 257wbymag] #2329732
12/13/17 06:14 AM
12/13/17 06:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,095
Northport, AL
GomerPyle Offline
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
GomerPyle  Offline
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,095
Northport, AL
There is no proof, obviously, but I actually think the allegations helped Moore. They were never going to seriously hurt him because there was no proof and even the rumors were shaky at best. But what it did was take the focus off the real issues that made him unelectable. Without the Sexual Harassment allegations, I honestly think it wouldn't have been as close as it was.


There are 3 certainties in an uncertain world:

1. All Politicians Are Liars
2. All Gun Laws Are an Infringement
3. Taxation Is Theft
Re: If you wrote in [Re: GomerPyle] #2329734
12/13/17 06:14 AM
12/13/17 06:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,891
Mobile, AL
S
SouthBamaSlayer Offline
Gary's Fluffer
SouthBamaSlayer  Offline
Gary's Fluffer
S
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 13,891
Mobile, AL

Originally Posted By: GomerPyle
There is no proof, obviously, but I actually think the allegations helped Moore. They were never going to seriously hurt him because there was no proof and even the rumors were shaky at best. But what it did was take the focus off the real issues that made him unelectable. Without the Sexual Harassment allegations, I honestly think it wouldn't have been as close as it was.


Without the allegations, any republican candidate wipes the floor with Jones.

Re: If you wrote in [Re: hoggin] #2329738
12/13/17 06:16 AM
12/13/17 06:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
N
NWALJM Offline
10 point
NWALJM  Offline
10 point
N
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
Originally Posted By: hoggin
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
I did not vote yesterday. I'm sure plenty here feel that is the worst thing a person could do, and I understand that. I used to feel that way too. But here's why I did not vote. First of all, I am a Christian and I hold to the convictions of my faith strongly. I have never believed that Roy Moore's antics (going back to the 10 Commandments issue) were rooted in his deep commitment to his faith or his convictions. I have always believed it was grand-standing for political gain. Doing that is essentially whoring out Christianity for your own needs, wants, or desires. Even before all of the alleged stuff with being a creep toward teen girls years ago, I did not feel good about voting for him.

Doug Jones, it is very simple. The man is running for office for a party that openly embraces murder of unborn children, and he himself supports it. I will not ever vote for a candidate that is tied to that.

So, I was left with choosing to vote between 2 candidates who both violated my faith-based convictions or writing in a candidate, which is waste of time. I believe that holding strongly to my convictions is more honorable than going to place a vote for someone who violates them. I understand that men have fought and died in battle over the centuries to preserve our way of life that includes freedom to vote that some nations do not have. I'm sure those same men did not also wish to fight and die so that their fellow countrymen years later would have to decide between candidates that both violate their consciences and convictions.

I will also add, that I will NEVER vote for someone who violates my convictions just to push a political party through. If the Republicans want my vote, stop putting terrible candidates out. That's my message.




Do you carry those same tow the line convictions when you never over eat, gossip, judge you neighbors, drink to much, smoke, dip, chew, lust, curse, speed, lose your temper or o the other side
Put your needs aside to spread Gods word daily, serve the needs of others never skip church to bun, fish, nurse a hangover, go on vacation
I could go on and on but you get the point and yes, were all guilty of being "better Christians" when it's most convenient or gives us a self righteous platform, its human nature


Hoggin, yes I do carry those same convictions for all of those issues. Does it mean I never violate them? No. It does mean that when I do I should repent of it. What you seem to be saying is that since we as Christians violate God's standard of holiness in so many other ways, what's it going to hurt to do it just one more way by voting against what you believe He has asked of you?

Re: If you wrote in [Re: SouthBamaSlayer] #2329739
12/13/17 06:16 AM
12/13/17 06:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,095
Northport, AL
GomerPyle Offline
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
GomerPyle  Offline
Impatient Stinky Britches Wearin’ Off-Roadin’ Guru
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 20,095
Northport, AL
Originally Posted By: SouthBamaSlayer

Originally Posted By: GomerPyle
There is no proof, obviously, but I actually think the allegations helped Moore. They were never going to seriously hurt him because there was no proof and even the rumors were shaky at best. But what it did was take the focus off the real issues that made him unelectable. Without the Sexual Harassment allegations, I honestly think it wouldn't have been as close as it was.


Without the allegations, any republican candidate wipes the floor with Jones.


I disagree, but again, no real sense in arguing over it since there is no way to prove it one way or another.


There are 3 certainties in an uncertain world:

1. All Politicians Are Liars
2. All Gun Laws Are an Infringement
3. Taxation Is Theft
Re: If you wrote in [Re: ] #2329749
12/13/17 06:21 AM
12/13/17 06:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
N
NWALJM Offline
10 point
NWALJM  Offline
10 point
N
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM

Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: bobwallace
To everyone trying to change the non-voters minds, you are wasting key strokes. Just a PSA.


It's about as tough as changing a Trump supporter's mind about Trump beers


So you dont like Trump either? Did you vote for Hillary then?


No because that would be inconsistent with everything I've just said. I wrote-in Evan McMullin.


you idiots who write people in are as dumb as a bag of rocks.

How many of your "Write ins" won?? EVER?

Oh thats right..NONE! loco rofl slap


Once again, you fail to understand the entire point of why we vote for a write-in candidate.

If the Republican Party and Trump want me to vote for their candidate so their agenda will be pushed through, then give me someone I can vote for. Period. You can laugh, call people stupid, call people names all you want. But you're doing nothing but making yourself look like a bitter, angry d-bag to everyone who disagrees with your point of view.

Re: If you wrote in [Re: GomerPyle] #2329762
12/13/17 06:27 AM
12/13/17 06:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,778
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
jawbone Offline
Freak of Nature
jawbone  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,778
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
Originally Posted By: GomerPyle
Originally Posted By: SouthBamaSlayer

Originally Posted By: GomerPyle
There is no proof, obviously, but I actually think the allegations helped Moore. They were never going to seriously hurt him because there was no proof and even the rumors were shaky at best. But what it did was take the focus off the real issues that made him unelectable. Without the Sexual Harassment allegations, I honestly think it wouldn't have been as close as it was.


Without the allegations, any republican candidate wipes the floor with Jones.


I disagree, but again, no real sense in arguing over it since there is no way to prove it one way or another.


Right, no way to prove either way but one thing that is not in doubt is that the Democratic party smelled blood, energized their base and got people to vote. It took a strong effort on their part and a bad candidate on the Republican side and it was still a close race. The Republicans need to learn a lesson from this fiasco.


Lord, please help us get our nation straightened out.
Re: If you wrote in [Re: NWALJM] #2329766
12/13/17 06:29 AM
12/13/17 06:29 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
R
R_H_Clark Offline
Leupold Pro Staff
R_H_Clark  Offline
Leupold Pro Staff
R
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Quote:
IT IS NOT about the candidate. Its about the POLITICAL PARTY of the candidate and HOW THEY WILL VOTE or lead our country.


Then they should learn to stop putting out terrible candidates to win elections they need in order to put forth their agenda. That's really the bottom line as to why Alabama has a Democrat going to Washington.


No! It's because you are so highly principled that you helped elect a democrat that is completely against everything you stand for. You and many other highly principled republicans are why we now have a democrat senator who will work hard to erode the very principals you claim to stand for.

Make no mistake about it,you are to blame. You are like the little spoiled brat who takes his ball and goes home because the game wasn't played the way he wanted. Now nobody gets to play,you included.

That's the way I feel about everybody that wrote in some name,not just you.That's the best thing I can say about any of you.The time for campaigning,is before the election,not during just because you didn't like the outcome the first go around.

Re: If you wrote in [Re: NWALJM] #2329770
12/13/17 06:32 AM
12/13/17 06:32 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
R
R_H_Clark Offline
Leupold Pro Staff
R_H_Clark  Offline
Leupold Pro Staff
R
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 8,670
NW Alabama
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM

Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: bobwallace
To everyone trying to change the non-voters minds, you are wasting key strokes. Just a PSA.


It's about as tough as changing a Trump supporter's mind about Trump beers


So you dont like Trump either? Did you vote for Hillary then?


No because that would be inconsistent with everything I've just said. I wrote-in Evan McMullin.


you idiots who write people in are as dumb as a bag of rocks.

How many of your "Write ins" won?? EVER?

Oh thats right..NONE! loco rofl slap


Once again, you fail to understand the entire point of why we vote for a write-in candidate.

If the Republican Party and Trump want me to vote for their candidate so their agenda will be pushed through, then give me someone I can vote for. Period. You can laugh, call people stupid, call people names all you want. But you're doing nothing but making yourself look like a bitter, angry d-bag to everyone who disagrees with your point of view.


I think you would find out today that there are a lot more who agree with him than with you.

Re: If you wrote in [Re: William] #2329773
12/13/17 06:33 AM
12/13/17 06:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,230
Semmes, AL
HippieKiller Offline
10 point
HippieKiller  Offline
10 point
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,230
Semmes, AL

Originally Posted By: William
This is the worst kind of logic. I hear it the most since I'm a Libertarian and either write-in or vote directly for a third party in nearly every election. Let me explain to you why you're wrong.....

I voted for Ron Bishop yesterday in the Alabama election. I literally wrote, Ron Bishop (Libertarian), on my ballot. I know this because it was me that did it. Now, here's the hard part, that vote was actually for Ron Bishop and NOT whomever you did not want to win that won. This seems to be a hard concept for some to grasp. I think it has to do with the logical fallacy that there are really only two choices and a choice for anything other than those two perceived choices are actually a vote against which ever choice you have chosen.

I hope this has helped you. In the future, instead of belittling or attempting to guilt third party voters into voting for your candidate, might I suggest running candidates for office that don't suck balls? Roy Moore is the creepiest of creeps and twice removed religious zealot judge. He's a clown of the first order that I wouldn't elect to Dog Catcher in Jasper, Al.


I too wrote in Ron Bishop & agree with your statement 100%.


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
Re: If you wrote in [Re: NWALJM] #2329779
12/13/17 06:35 AM
12/13/17 06:35 AM

O
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
outdoorobsession
Unregistered
O


Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM

Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: bobwallace
To everyone trying to change the non-voters minds, you are wasting key strokes. Just a PSA.


It's about as tough as changing a Trump supporter's mind about Trump beers


So you dont like Trump either? Did you vote for Hillary then?


No because that would be inconsistent with everything I've just said. I wrote-in Evan McMullin.


you idiots who write people in are as dumb as a bag of rocks.

How many of your "Write ins" won?? EVER?

Oh thats right..NONE! loco rofl slap


Once again, you fail to understand the entire point of why we vote for a write-in candidate.

If the Republican Party and Trump want me to vote for their candidate so their agenda will be pushed through, then give me someone I can vote for. Period. You can laugh, call people stupid, call people names all you want. But you're doing nothing but making yourself look like a bitter, angry d-bag to everyone who disagrees with your point of view.



No, it makes me look like a REALIST, not a D bag,..and you look like an Idealist who doesnt understand reality.

( and yes..A D BAG, and a dumbarse since you wanted to call names Jr)

NO WRITE ins WIN..ever.

So youre not voting for someone to WIN an election, but to make yourself FEEL good emotionally over your perceived moral superiority that you..STOOD ON PRINCIPLE..though your candidate stood a snowballs chance in hell of winning.

Yea,..that makes perfect sense. loco rofl


And Im not angry. I just cant understand stupidity.

I didnt like Moore either. I didnt like Trump either..I was a CRUZ supporter.

But there are only 2 CHOICES on a TICKET after the PRIMARY who are going to win..one an R , one a D. And they were chosen by the MAJORITY of voters of each party.

So in both elections I voted for trump, and then Moore..as they were the ONLY REPUBLICAN CHOICES.

For some reason you cannot fathom the REALITY of that..so keep on writing in Mickey Mouse! slap

By the way, I have taken Poli Sci courses and UNDERSTAND how the political system works. I can tell that you HAVE NOT,..as you are clueless.

Last edited by outdoorobsession; 12/13/17 06:36 AM.
Re: If you wrote in [Re: R_H_Clark] #2329780
12/13/17 06:36 AM
12/13/17 06:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL
N
NWALJM Offline
10 point
NWALJM  Offline
10 point
N
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,287
Hartselle, AL

Originally Posted By: R_H_Clark
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM

Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: bobwallace
To everyone trying to change the non-voters minds, you are wasting key strokes. Just a PSA.


It's about as tough as changing a Trump supporter's mind about Trump beers


So you dont like Trump either? Did you vote for Hillary then?


No because that would be inconsistent with everything I've just said. I wrote-in Evan McMullin.


you idiots who write people in are as dumb as a bag of rocks.

How many of your "Write ins" won?? EVER?

Oh thats right..NONE! loco rofl slap


Once again, you fail to understand the entire point of why we vote for a write-in candidate.

If the Republican Party and Trump want me to vote for their candidate so their agenda will be pushed through, then give me someone I can vote for. Period. You can laugh, call people stupid, call people names all you want. But you're doing nothing but making yourself look like a bitter, angry d-bag to everyone who disagrees with your point of view.


I think you would find out today that there are a lot more who agree with him than with you.


grin I can handle that

Re: If you wrote in [Re: 257wbymag] #2329786
12/13/17 06:42 AM
12/13/17 06:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,778
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
jawbone Offline
Freak of Nature
jawbone  Offline
Freak of Nature
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,778
Fayetteville TN Via Selma
IMO, A write in vote for Ron Bishop wasn't a real vote for him (and "real" is the best terminology I can come up with off the top of my head) because you had to know he had no chance of winning. I see it a an expression of dissatisfaction with the other choices, which is fine and is your right to do so. I considered it myself, but in the end I wanted to have some say in who would be making decisions for our country.


Lord, please help us get our nation straightened out.
Re: If you wrote in [Re: ] #2329787
12/13/17 06:43 AM
12/13/17 06:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 9,541
Montgomery, AL
jbc Offline
14 point
jbc  Offline
14 point
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 9,541
Montgomery, AL
Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM

Originally Posted By: outdoorobsession
Originally Posted By: NWALJM
Originally Posted By: bobwallace
To everyone trying to change the non-voters minds, you are wasting key strokes. Just a PSA.


It's about as tough as changing a Trump supporter's mind about Trump beers


So you dont like Trump either? Did you vote for Hillary then?


No because that would be inconsistent with everything I've just said. I wrote-in Evan McMullin.


you idiots who write people in are as dumb as a bag of rocks.

How many of your "Write ins" won?? EVER?

Oh thats right..NONE! loco rofl slap


Once again, you fail to understand the entire point of why we vote for a write-in candidate.

If the Republican Party and Trump want me to vote for their candidate so their agenda will be pushed through, then give me someone I can vote for. Period. You can laugh, call people stupid, call people names all you want. But you're doing nothing but making yourself look like a bitter, angry d-bag to everyone who disagrees with your point of view.



NO WRITE ins WIN..ever.

So youre not voting for someone to WIN an election, but to make yourself FEEL good emotionally over your perceived moral superiority that you..STOOD ON PRINCIPLE..though your candidate stood a snowballs chance in hell of winning.

Yea,..that makes perfect sense. loco rofl



I may be wrong, but I don’t believe anyone who wrote in a candidate believed they would win.

I think of it more as a petition of disapproval in the two candidates and the election in general. A petition that 22,000+ people signed.

The only difference from staying home is that the quantity of the “petition” would be less

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