I like Grant Woods also and watch his show every week. I always thought the same thing when he used to go on and on about Trophy Rock.

I really do enjoy this thread CNc, where most plotters fail, IMO, is it takes the whole ecosystem to make the world turn. From the little bees, to the big deer, it all really does matter in the big scheme of things. I absolutely love going to my fields in the summer time, eat black berries, inspect deer browse on ragweed, BlackBerry, greenbriar, ect, and listen to all the small critters like bees, crickets, grasshoppers, birds that the plot is home to at tha time.

It’s just like Riverwood is saying. He’s a great guy but at the end of the day he’s making a show for a living and to support his family. Sponsors and the bias they create are just a part of it. He does a lot better job than most. There’s a lot of folks out there just straight up pimpin products…..and mostly just chit too…..At least what Grant is promoting is quality products.

Still though…..he’s still somewhat skewing our idea of food plots just the same. It’s still promoting the commercialized idea that quality plots can only come from a bag and a magic seed blend. “Weeds” are bad and the good stuff has to be bought. He’s one of the first ones to finally start promoting soil health but like I was saying in my original post….it has to be seen through the lens of the sponsors. It will be hard for anyone to ever tell you the complete truth because there’s very little to sell if they do.

Here’s the truth the way I see it………These small plots that we’re all dealing with are limited in their ability to produce significant “food” tonnage of anything you plant. They could come out with the most magical bean seed ever made and it still wouldn’t make any difference to your deer herd if all you can plant is 1 acre here and ½ acre there like most of us are doing. It’s virtually insignificant in the big picture. Therefore, during the summer months your best option for these small kill plots becomes 1) improving the soil…….2) continual ATTRACTION of deer…….

In my opinion, that can best be accomplished through adding soil amendments and helping along the natural summer vegetation. Vegetation that has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to rebuild soil and provide food to wildlife at the same time. There aren’t any other plants better at doing the job of rebuilding soil than the ones Mother Nature has created. They’re the most drought resistant…..the most browse tolerant……the toughest competitors…..and the most likely ones to thrive in poor conditions.

Maw Nature also knows which plants are needed at certain stages of soil reconstruction……Just like when my soil was broken down to nothing but pure sand…..there’s a reason nothing grew but pure crabgrass……Soil organic matter was badly depleted and something needed to set roots and stabilize the top 3-4 inches of soil. A thick mat of crabgrass was the perfect tool to initially reclaim the area and she knew it…..not beans….not milo…..not buckwheat….Sure, you could probably get some of that other stuff to grow and they may even do meh ok in some situations…..but in the end, would they thrive as much in those poor conditions as the crabgrass did and would they accomplish the real goals that needed accomplishing….heavily stabilizing the top layer of soil??? Which one accomplishes that goal better? Think about it this way……If a bulldozer came in and did a bunch of fresh dirt work….would you stabilize that dirt with sunflowers and beans……or a thick mat a grass???

Once that part of the reconstruction is complete though and soil conditions are improved…..then that’s when nature brings back in the broadleafs…..It’s a process that we really don’t need to improve on…..instead we just need to help nurture the process along……Nature will rebuild your soil for you if you let her….Instead though, we do every thing in our power to fight in the opposite direction……She’s trying to stabilize soil and build OM and we’re freaking out about “weeds”……

Spray ‘em!!....Till ‘em!!!.....Spray ‘em again!!....Till ‘em four more times!!!....Chit!! they just keep coming back!!!....and now it’s the really bad ones!!!.....Wait, now my spray doesn’t work anymore!!....Quick somebody develop new spray why I till it again!!....That’ll fix it!

If we don't ever recognize the root cause of our problem then nothing we ever do will "fix it"....we'll simply keep searching for another solution for the latest problem. We're treating symptoms and not root causes.

Thanks!….Glad you’re enjoying the thread......

I completely agree . What I see when I look at the masses of plotters is a group of folks who have been heavily manipulated by commercial marketing. We have tunnel vision that is only trained to see things a certain way. We can stare directly at a problem and not see it. A good example is if you’ll look in many of these pictures folks post of food plots, you’ll notice heavy erosion in many of them. We look right at it yet we don’t see it. Nor do we see the repercussions of it. Here’s a picture I posted years ago where I was just as blind to seeing it myself. I posted the picture up to show my sunflowers sprouting. It could just as easily be used as a good example of topsoil erosion. At the time I simply stared right past it.

Based off your deer population, I bet those sunflowers didn't even make it.

We in such a bad drought up here in the NW corner don't matter if it's T&M or regular if we don't get water this week it's all over with.

You know some of those sunflowers actually made it that year. Nothing great but I wouldn’t stand a chance of seeing yellow flowers now. I didn’t have deer in here all summer long back then like I do these days. I have a good number of does now that just never leave…..ever. I watch them on my game camera day after day after day. I bet if you radio collared them it’d show that most of them aren’t moving around much at all. They don’t have any reason to. They spread out a little during spring and summer and then condense back down in late winter.

When that happens year after year after year……the bucks in the area know it…... I’ve had bucks that I know of come to check out my field during the rut that the neighbors ended up killing 2-3 miles away. Most of the best ones I’ve ever killed just showed up out of the blue from properties around me. Imagine doe concentrations being plotted on a GIS buffer map. My field (and property in general) would be glowing red year round…. Even though I only have a small property…..this almost guarantees me a crack at a decent buck each year. When there’s 20-25 does concentrated in a small area then the tomcats will eventually show up when the rut kicks in.

Yep…..no-till only provides a buffer against extreme weather. If it doesn’t rain….any of it will eventually run dry.

Exactly

Any advice on throw-n-mow for planting bermuda grass from seed? I want to turn an field of mixed grasses/small trees into mowable bermuda grass. I was thinking non-selective spray in early april, thrownmow. There will be a heavy thatch layer however...

I’d use a drill for that.

I would really like to try this on our lease this season, but not sure the best way to start. We currently pay a local $35/hr to plant for us. I would really like to save the $1200ish we spend with him. But we have a few holdups that will make it tough;

1. Lack of time and proper planting equipment. We all live two hours away, but could possibly borrow a tractor for a weekend or two.
2. Maybe half our fields have enough current growth to have a good thatch layer. What to do on the others?
3. The biggest issue, seven other guys that for the most part think this is crazy.

We have roughly 12 acres of plots on an 1800 acre lease. Any tips on how to convince others to give this a shot and get started would be greatly appreciated.

I'd just keep paying the guy. $35/hr is extremely cheap.

I’ve never planted Bermuda but I would imagine you would just throw and mow it like millet or any other small seeded grass. The only thing I might be leery about is covering that tiny seed over with too much thatch and smothering it out.

Just like you said, that last part of your equation is gonna be the hardest to overcome. We can get your plots to cooperate but I can’t promise anything with the humans. You may have to pick your best plot and do a test run to show them it will work first.

Those plots that don't have enough thatch are gonna need some pampering along first before they'll work as well as you want them to. You'll have to start hitting them with periodic doses of fert (mainly N) in the spring and summer until you get over that biomass hurdle. A lot of the reason you're probably not producing much biomass right now is because your soil is unproductive. That takes a little time to turn around. That's one of the toughest part with convincing others. If it doesn't work immediately then they're gonna be quick to say "I told you so"

I just had 10 acres worth of plot on 2 ridges (roughly 6 on one ridge, and 4 on the other) and am reclaiming a 2 acre plot we let go fallow 3 years ago. I'm excited to get started on these 2 new fields. It's pretty rough soil conditions at the moment.

I know it is a good price, but I feel like we are getting what we pay for to a degree. We are on a tight budget, and could certainly use some of that for other projects, lime/fertilizer, etc.

I like the idea of picking a couple that have good growth already and trying it out on them. Assuming it works on those, I think enough people might get on board.

Our "soil" is pretty horrible. We only have a few fields that get decent growth with what we are doing now.

First, this is a great thread and I've learned a lot about what works, what doesn't, and the amount of time, effort and money each approach takes!

I've got about 40 acres on the Cumberland plateau in Jackson county. The land on the ridge is flat to rolling, and the soil is mostly weathered sandstone, then a yellowish clay before getting down to rock at about 36". My land was clearcut 10-12 years ago and is now mostly hardwood regrowth: poplars, maples, oaks, poplars, sweet gums, poplars and a few shortleaf pines. And poplars :-) The only open areas when I bought it were the old logging roads, and it was completely impassable with blackberries everywhere. From a clearing saw to a walk behind brush cutter to a bush hog, I've been able to clear some of the old roads. I also cleared about a half acre field with pushing over the small trees with the front end loader.

Anywhere I clear will inevitably have old red oak and maple stumps, big ones. Before reading through this thread, I assumed I would need to eventually deal with all those stumps so that I could pull a disc through the areas I was planting. Now, I love the idea of just getting the stumps low enough to bush hog over (most are 3" high at most and the termites are hard at work on them as we speak).

My throw and mow question is how would you convert early stage forest to fields, using a small tractor (Kubota 25hp with FEL)?

I could cut the small trees to ground level and mow around the large stumps. There are a few bumpy spots and old ruts from the skidders that I'd like to smooth out, I just hate the idea of going from good soil, covered in trees, to plowed up soil with little OM, trying to go back to good soil. I don't have a disc yet, but I will probably get one to chop up small roots on new ground and to make firebreaks for burning. I'm not a quail hunter, but discing the old roads every 4-5 years would keep a little bare ground and I do like hearing them sing.

Yep. Chainsaw your trees down low and just plant over the top of them without discing. That's my plan until they rot out.