I'm considering purchasing some property around union springs. It is mostly pasture land now. I would plant it in pines to improve the habitat and yield some profits. If managed properly, what could I expect as an ROI?

Not very much. I am in that line of work. Pine pulp wood is purchased at the mill for around $8 - $10 a ton. So the logger has to get paid out of that. Pine saw logs are a little bit better. But not that much. Hardwood pulp wood runs about $20 a ton.

Don't ruin another beautiful place around union springs with pines... Run some cows on the pasture, cut and sale hay. I've got buddies who have come dang close to doubling their money buying cows and letting them eat grass for 6 months on there pastures then selling them. Then doing it again.

Hard to say exactly, but usually the big TIMO landowners say 6-7% annual return. You get the biological growth of the timber and the growth in value as it moves up in product class (pulpwood---chip n saw---sawtimber). For a single tract of land, the ROI could vary quite a bit. Your up front cost for site prepping and planting seedlings should be around $200-$400/acre. Being pasture land, you might need to rip the fields with a dozer to reduce soil compaction, that would put you on the high end of the establishment cost. Most pine plantations are 1st thinned around 13-16 years old, 2nd thinned around 20-23 years old and clearcut around 25-35 years old. All of the harvests are generally dependent on market conditions at the time. Assuming normal market conditions you should make a pretty good return. In my opinion, timber and land in general is a great investment. With a single tract of land I wouldn't get too hung up on the % return, just know under normal conditions you will make money on the investment and have a place of you own to hunt/enjoy and pass along to your kids (or sell for a profit years down the road).

Mills don't pay $8-10 a ton for pulpwood, that is the STUMPAGE rate the landowners get. Mills pay what is called a DELIVERED rate. So if it takes $20/ton for the logger to cut & haul it, and the stumpage rate to the landowner is say $8/ton, then the delivered rate would be $28 (or a little more if the timber buyer/wood dealer had $1-2/ton of profit factored in. No mill could ever wood their mill paying $8-10 delivered prices. Everyone hauling them wood would have a major loss of $ so they wouldn't bother hauling in the first place.

Thing is with pasture, you've got to do something with it. Cows, you've got fencing, fertilizing, vet bills,ect. Cows are high now bust most say it's not going to last.
Pines, pretty much plant and forget. You may have to spray the first spring or break the ground like someone else said.
I just went thru the same deal. After looking at everything we went with pines. Around 90/acre planted then around 1000 to spray this spring.

You are gonna get feelthy stenkin rich!

Oh wait a minute, you already are.

Buy the land and plant the trees and quit wasting money on club memberships.

8% is reasonable ROI for the timber aspect. Land is a separate line item and is much more difficult to project.

I am confused. Are you saying if someone spent $10,000 to plant pines they can expect a 8% ROI when they cut the pines or per year?

On pines, in my experience and limited knowledge, it cost around $100 per acre to plant. Then your first thinning might pay $250 per acre @ 15 years, second thinning might pay around $750 per acre @ 25 years, final cutting @ 35 years would pay you around $1500 per acre. So $2400 per acre profit realized over 35 years.

Why would anyone plant plant pine on existing pasture land when pasture land is at an all time high in the existence of time. I understand that pines take less maintenance but pasture land and cows are at an all time high. If you do not want to fool with farming and you are paying a price for the pasture land where planting pines is even an option then you must be paying a good price, so why not consider flipping it and buying a piece that has been clear cut or recently planted. I sell land and pasture land is hard to find and is selling for a premium. In my opinion I just can't see buying pasture land and planting it in pines at this time ten years ago yeah but not today it makes no sense at all. There are even people getting 1k an acre to convert clear cut land to pasture land.

You are gonna get feelthy stenkin rich!

Oh wait a minute, you already are.

Buy the land and plant the trees and quit wasting money on club memberships. [/

This is what i keep telling my wife.

A man that I've known for a couple years owns it and wants me to buy it. Giving me a good deal but pasture is no good to me. I want deer killin property.

I just had my 13 year pines thinned and I got $14 a ton for pine pulp and $10 a ton for hardwood pulp.

Plant fruit trees, saw tooth oaks, and corn. I can't stand hunting a pine thicket myself.

Annual return. Although biologically, it doesn't work that way.

Pasture land has boocoo deer.

Let grass grow and cut like CRP. I have hunted deer for 40 years pretty much all over union springs. The mixed pasture with wooded creek bottoms is WAY BETTER DEER HUNTING LAND.

Im a biologist so I really don't want to her some argument about thinned, burned...aka sedgefield pine planted land because most of us don't have that type land or time.... If for nothing else you will shoot 3 to 1 deer with the pasture land because you can see the deer.

I say this from experience as the 100 acres of pasture on our 177 acres is in year 22 with pines. Everybody wishes they could go back in time and never have planted a crappy pine. The landowners cuss themselves and just said they wish that knew how much pines screw up a beautiful pastoral setting but they were ignorant when everybody suggested they plant pines...

8% is optimistic IMO. This may also not count the "opportunity cost" of putting up all the money up front and not being able to invest it otherwise.
I'm not saying its not possible, just not average.

If you remove the cost of land all together, which I did since it sounds like he is only trying to make a decision on timber vs field, then 8% is very safe.

For ease of numbers lets say you are going to plant trees on 1 acre of land, let them grow 20 years and harvest them.

Establishment cost: $250
FV at 20 years: $1,000 (85 tons/ac @ $12/ton)
ROI = 20%

Of course you have taxes you will have to figure in. Who knows what they will be in 20 years.


Everything has an opportunity cost. Not sure why that would be included in this analysis. As long as ROI is greater than opportunity cost then it is a smart financial decision.

Oh ok. Yeah if you take out land costs, 8%.

I just thought you were referring to the OP's post and saying he could make 8% off that land purchase price.

Carry on