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Re: coyote rant
[Re: Frankie]
#953157
05/07/14 02:31 AM
05/07/14 02:31 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,132 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,132
Awbarn, AL
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When you look at the end result, in most situations, coyotes are controlling total deer populations in the same manner as our doe harvesting as hunters have done in the past. You can say they are eating buck fawns or whatever you want to make it sound worse but in the end they are just controlling total population. Doe harvesting is the same, its just a means of controlling total deer populations. Over the next decades to come, coyotes are something we will have to learn to manage with and not believe that we can manage in the absence of. If you believe that they’re aren’t enough deer in your area then the #1 way of changing anything is through improving the habitat for deer and more specifically for fawning. The next step is to reduce your doe harvesting. On the other end of the spectrum, if there are satisfactory numbers of deer in your area and you are more interested in hunting mature bucks on your land and not having to spend half your hunts blasting does……then just allow the coyote to do its job of keeping your herd in check and under carrying capacities. The coyote is just a alternative population control tool to doe harvesting in this manner. The important thing is to recognize the level of impact that all parties in the circle are having on each other. It’s much easier to work with nature than to fight completely against it.
Last edited by CNC; 05/07/14 02:33 AM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: Frankie]
#953162
05/07/14 02:42 AM
05/07/14 02:42 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,368 alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,368
alabama
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I don't want yotes making decisions on what deer to remove from the population. I'll do that myself.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: BhamFred]
#953188
05/07/14 03:15 AM
05/07/14 03:15 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,132 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,132
Awbarn, AL
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I don't want yotes making decisions on what deer to remove from the population. I'll do that myself. You may like to have to harvest and process every doe on your property that needs harvesting annually but there are many landowners who do not. There are some people who own or lease land that are perfectly happy with taking out a doe or two for the freezer and then hunting a buck for the rest of the season. The idea of having to shoot 8-10+ does is not something they’re interested in. Not only is it a lot of work to get that many does out of the woods and taken care of, but it also adds a lot more human hunting pressure to the property that is not wanted by people pursuing older bucks.
Last edited by CNC; 05/07/14 03:16 AM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: CNC]
#953216
05/07/14 03:37 AM
05/07/14 03:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 north alabama
shooters
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
north alabama
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Johnal3, and BhamFred summed it up very well. Most people have leases. You can not go on leases ans start burning or cutting to improve deer habitat, so trapping is the best option for most leases. BhamFred said it best= I dont want coyotes making the decisions on what deer to remove form the population, i will do that myself! I think that 80-90% of people on here feel the same way. I trully HATE coyotes. I know they need to exist, just like the buzzard. I hate them because , i have sean the faces of ranchers loseing money and small children sad from loosing pets to coyotes. Why must you insist on saying we should try to live with nature? America was built on fighting nature! Most people on here plant greenfeild= thats no 100% natural is it? Quail habitat, isnt all natural is it? I understand the concept of low pressure, and not wanting to shoot lots of does. But if you trap you get more bucks and does! Easy solution . Find a good trapper that will trap your land for hunting rights, that loves to bow hunt and needs meat= problem solved. Most people dont want coyotes. So why not just get ride of them if you can or if you need to. If you dont need the coyotes gone then your in luck i say.
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: NightHunter]
#953219
05/07/14 03:42 AM
05/07/14 03:42 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,227 South Alabama
gobbler
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 5,227
South Alabama
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FYI, I DO have places I want my coyotes to help me control the deer population. Somebody needed to straighten them out I see you do an awful lot of trapping on those places with good fawning habitat. I wonder why And again, I'll say coyotes are localized issues, just like deer overpopulation. Ted knows that and must be busting my chops. I just do not want coyotes making my harvest decisions regardless what my deer population is. You are right, very localized issue. I have had properties with low deer numbers and habitat modifications didn't help bring up our numbers. Coyote trapping did. There are also those properties that there are too many deer and the hunters will not do an adequate job of killing does to keep the numbers in check, especially with great fawning cover. Coyotes help us out tremendously on these places. As noted before, it could get expensive - on one property we trap, we kill about a coyote AND a bobcat per 100 acres per year. at $100 per coyote and $100 per bobcat on 3,000 acres that is $6,000 per year, not an insignificant perpetual number.
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: BhamFred]
#953250
05/07/14 04:05 AM
05/07/14 04:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654 Longwood, FL
jlbuc10
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654
Longwood, FL
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I don't want yotes making decisions on what deer to remove from the population. I'll do that myself. I'm guessing in general the yotes, would pick the old, weak, and sick deer. Natures law of survival of the fitest is in play in this predator prey relationship. Theorhetically you should get a genetically superior herd by allowing natural predeation cause only the biggest and strongest survive to pass on their genes. P.S. I respect all y'all's opinions, I'm just not nieve enough to take everything y'all say for 100% truth, no matter how much you chest beat about your credentials. If I could argue with James Andrews about tommy john surgery I would! Haha Oh yeah I do shoot every yote I see.
Last edited by jlbuc10; 05/07/14 04:06 AM.
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: gobbler]
#953256
05/07/14 04:07 AM
05/07/14 04:07 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 north alabama
shooters
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
north alabama
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Gobbler, i full agree with you. I threw out the 100 dollars a coyote price as an example of traveling 50 miles one way and not charging a set-up fee as some trappers do. I agree that 6000 dollars is on the high side for 3000 acres. I have worked for for professional like your self and can honestly say, I dont charge for the bobcats or raccons. I look at it as part of the bussiness. Sometimes i get opossom, coons,fox,and bobcat. I dont charge for any of them, just the coyote. My trappers i know do the same. I only trap and charge for coyote. If in season i can save the bobcat pelt, and resale. This would off seat any over run of bobcat catching one would have to do own a property trapping for coyote. So if you had someone trap 3000 acres and charge 50 for the coyotes, throw in the bobcats for free, would it be worth a free member ship and 1500 dollars? Maybe you could find a GOOD local trapper that you could trust and that shared the same management ideas that YOU have and get him to do it for free hunting rights? My only point is i feel trapping is a valueable tool, and a skill set worth passing down to the next generation
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: jlbuc10]
#953343
05/07/14 05:43 AM
05/07/14 05:43 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,368 alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,368
alabama
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I don't want yotes making decisions on what deer to remove from the population. I'll do that myself. I'm guessing in general the yotes, would pick the old, weak, and sick deer. Natures law of survival of the fitest is in play in this predator prey relationship. Theorhetically you should get a genetically superior herd by allowing natural predeation cause only the biggest and strongest survive to pass on their genes. P.S. I respect all y'all's opinions, I'm just not nieve enough to take everything y'all say for 100% truth, no matter how much you chest beat about your credentials. If I could argue with James Andrews about tommy john surgery I would! Haha Oh yeah I do shoot every yote I see. technically, yer prolly wrong about the sick/wounded/old deer being chosen. Yotes kill whatever presents itself first. During fawning season they target newborn fawns. My experience with fawns tells me the buck fawns are more active and more likely to get up and move, therefore putting themselves at greater yote risk. Back in my rehab days the buck fawns outnumbered the doe fawns by at least three to one. My field examinations of dead fawns, if sex is identifiable) follows that ratio pretty close.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: BhamFred]
#953439
05/07/14 07:18 AM
05/07/14 07:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654 Longwood, FL
jlbuc10
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654
Longwood, FL
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I don't want yotes making decisions on what deer to remove from the population. I'll do that myself. I'm guessing in general the yotes, would pick the old, weak, and sick deer. Natures law of survival of the fitest is in play in this predator prey relationship. Theorhetically you should get a genetically superior herd by allowing natural predeation cause only the biggest and strongest survive to pass on their genes. P.S. I respect all y'all's opinions, I'm just not nieve enough to take everything y'all say for 100% truth, no matter how much you chest beat about your credentials. If I could argue with James Andrews about tommy john surgery I would! Haha Oh yeah I do shoot every yote I see. technically, yer prolly wrong about the sick/wounded/old deer being chosen. Yotes kill whatever presents itself first. During fawning season they target newborn fawns. My experience with fawns tells me the buck fawns are more active and more likely to get up and move, therefore putting themselves at greater yote risk. Back in my rehab days the buck fawns outnumbered the doe fawns by at least three to one. My field examinations of dead fawns, if sex is identifiable) follows that ratio pretty close. And what kind of animal would usually present it self first? a sick or injured or whatever animal. I would consider a fawn to be a "weak" animal in the overall herd, and the fawns that aren't eaten would be stronger, smarter, faster, better a hiding... than the ones that got eaten. Therefore only the best of the best fawns survive to adult hood. How can you argue against natural selection?
Last edited by jlbuc10; 05/07/14 07:20 AM.
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: jlbuc10]
#953460
05/07/14 07:37 AM
05/07/14 07:37 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,368 alabama
BhamFred
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 36,368
alabama
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I don't want yotes making decisions on what deer to remove from the population. I'll do that myself. I'm guessing in general the yotes, would pick the old, weak, and sick deer. Natures law of survival of the fitest is in play in this predator prey relationship. Theorhetically you should get a genetically superior herd by allowing natural predeation cause only the biggest and strongest survive to pass on their genes. P.S. I respect all y'all's opinions, I'm just not nieve enough to take everything y'all say for 100% truth, no matter how much you chest beat about your credentials. If I could argue with James Andrews about tommy john surgery I would! Haha Oh yeah I do shoot every yote I see. technically, yer prolly wrong about the sick/wounded/old deer being chosen. Yotes kill whatever presents itself first. During fawning season they target newborn fawns. My experience with fawns tells me the buck fawns are more active and more likely to get up and move, therefore putting themselves at greater yote risk. Back in my rehab days the buck fawns outnumbered the doe fawns by at least three to one. My field examinations of dead fawns, if sex is identifiable) follows that ratio pretty close. And what kind of animal would usually present it self first? a sick or injured or whatever animal. I would consider a fawn to be a "weak" animal in the overall herd, and the fawns that aren't eaten would be stronger, smarter, faster, better a hiding... than the ones that got eaten. Therefore only the best of the best fawns survive to adult hood. How can you argue against natural selection? not even close to what happens....please give your PERSONAL experience and expertise with newborn fawns.......as opposed to something you heard at the hunting club..or on here. the ones that survive are the ones that stay put better/longer and also are just lucky, as in lotto lucky. Also fawns of older mommas that put em in better hiding places and move em every time she feeds. And "faster" ain't got chitt to do with small fawns. As a yote hunts it will kill every fawn it comes to, hopefully there are a lot more fawns than the yotes can kill so that some actually survive to six months. Ain't got chitt to do with smart, just the odds....
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: jlbuc10]
#953504
05/07/14 08:13 AM
05/07/14 08:13 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 16,147 Elmore County
Frankie
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 16,147
Elmore County
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I have zero experience with fawns. But you contradict your self in your own argument. You say the fawns that get eaten are randomly selected just like the lotto, but then You say the mother has an affect on the fawns survival. How can both of these be true. Is it completely lotto random or are there other factors that go into which fawns get preyed upon. I guess you don't believe in natural selection. Is it not natural preditory instinct to target the weak where the predator has less of a chance at injuring itself vs going after the strongest animal in the herd? This doesn't come from here or a camp fire. I learned this straight out of a zoological text book, this was some years ago though so my facts might be off. Listen I don't want a pissing match with you it just seems like the smart thing for a predator to do would be to target the "lesser" animals in a herd. Maybe yotes are dumb and don't care about their personal safety
Like I said I have no educational background with the yote deer relationship. I'm just saying that if the normal predator prey relationships exist predators prey on the weak and only the strongest prey survive. do a search ,,,, do coyotes kill healthy deer you really need to reread what Fred typed
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: Frankie]
#953520
05/07/14 08:21 AM
05/07/14 08:21 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654 Longwood, FL
jlbuc10
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654
Longwood, FL
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Yes they do but wouldnt they prefer a weak one? If there was a three legged sick doe and a 250 peak health buck standing in a field which one will the coyote go for? Here's a good source of information. Predator Prey relationship All I'm saying is that natural predation does a good job of selecting the weak and therefore making the prey stronger better evolved. Your making your self god when you say that you know better which animals should die than a coyote
Last edited by jlbuc10; 05/07/14 08:24 AM.
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: jlbuc10]
#953546
05/07/14 08:48 AM
05/07/14 08:48 AM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000 north alabama
shooters
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,000
north alabama
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Yes they do but wouldnt they prefer a weak one? If there was a three legged sick doe and a 250 peak health buck standing in a field which one will the coyote go for? Here's a good source of information. Predator Prey relationship All I'm saying is that natural predation does a good job of selecting the weak and therefore making the prey stronger better evolved. Your making your self god when you say that you know better which animals should die than a coyote WRONG. Read Genesis 1.26 . Basicly it says= God gave man dominion over ,fish,fowl,cattle, and every thing that creeeth upon the earth. Now thats not word for word but close. So its not making your self God. God gave us dominion over coyotes.
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: Frankie]
#953572
05/07/14 09:13 AM
05/07/14 09:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654 Longwood, FL
jlbuc10
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 11,654
Longwood, FL
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If he wanted us to do all the killing why did he create predators? That verse does not say humans are required to take the place of coyotes in nature it simply says we rule over them. Let's turn this into a religious battle since we can't win the other, good tactic
Did you even reAd the article I posted specifically about the yote deer relationship?
Last edited by jlbuc10; 05/07/14 09:18 AM.
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Re: coyote rant
[Re: jlbuc10]
#953588
05/07/14 09:27 AM
05/07/14 09:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 16,147 Elmore County
Frankie
OP
Old Mossy Horns
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OP
Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 16,147
Elmore County
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If he wanted us to do all the killing why did he create predators? That verse does not say humans are required to take the place of coyotes in nature it simply says we rule over them. Let's turn this into a religious battle since we can't win the other, good tactic i'm not religious man being top predator nature gives me the right to contorll other predators ., it's called "competition" . less of them the more i have . just that simple !!!!
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