Look, not that I give a crap what you think, but you, longbow and justhangin came in here to defend this project and claim that folks on here were trashing the guys doing the project. I see nowhere where anyone was trashing Walter, Hale or Roy. If you think they were being trashed personally, show me where! As I have stated before, I like these guys and think a lot of them. However, many on here were expressing their opinion that the project was and is misguided and potentially dangerous to the deer herd in Marengo county. The Department of Conservation, their biologists, the QDMA, their biologists, the AWF, their biologist, Westervelt, their biologists.....etc...all agree with that opinion. I and others know enough to state that opinion and don't need to do a lot more research to have or state that opinion. As Bill noted, the responsibility is with the PROJECT to prove it will NOT be detrimental to the existing deer herd, not the other way around.




On this one you may be right, however, you seem to be the one here trashing folks, not the other way around. I may not be in the same category: Dave was one of the finest folks I knew and one of the few I shed a tear for at his funeral. I both turkey and squirrel hunted with him every year and we both worked under the same professor at Auburn. Claude is a biologist of the highest caliber and a personal friend whos integrity and moral compass cannot be questioned. I was on the search and hire committee that hired him and he has been an exceptional asset to the AWF.

I am FAR from the most knowledgeable person (or important as you say) on here regarding deer. You want passionate, educated deer Biologists, try Matt Brock, Steve Ditchkoff, Nighthunter, among others who regularly post on here. Want someone who does and lives "Deer management" for a living, ask BSK. As far as the rest of the folks on here, try listening (or reading) for a while (instead of telling everyone to shut up and that you know all of the most knowledgeable biologists) and you will be AMAZED at the amount of deer knowledge many of these guys have. As for me, I am a simple, old school habitat focused Biologist where habitat management is most important and deer, usually, are no more important than a turkey or a quail.

Again, you came on here with an attitude talking trash and telling folks on here to shut up because their opinion didn't jive with yours:


You came on here bragging about all the important biologists you know and hunt with, but can't recite their names or who they worked for. Longbow came on here laying out an article of Hales showing how knowledgeable he is, but shows nothing about his credentials. I don't care about his credentials, I know he is a sharp guy but don't toss out an article he wrote on deer season length to insinuate that he is knowledgeable about genetics and deer management. It's like y'all didn't realize that there would be Biologists, Foresters, Professors, and many others that are well-educated in "deer" on this forum! There are plenty on here with abundant deer knowledge. Why is it so important for y'all to be so passionately (and poorly) defending this project??



It is your right, however, to continue to try to inform the rest of us idiots about this project and try to convince us that the project is being done in a benevolent effort to "help others". Maybe, eventually, we will become more thankful.

Well said Gobbler, exactly how I saw it unfold.

I've been reading this thread, but haven't commented; time to share my great wisdom.

Just a few random comments:

1) I don't think its fair to call these bucks "genetically modified" or ""genetically altered." Selective breeding is what has resulted in 200" deer, and selective breeding has been done with livestock for centuries, and these deer are just livestock. RR corn has been genetically modified, by somehow splicing a glyphosate gene into the corn. I wish I knew how to do it so I could create a genetically modified chufa, but I fear this is a bit beyond my ability. Anyway, these are just deer that have been selectively bred to produce bigger antlers; they are still just deer.

2) The chances of the BBP significantly changing the genetics of the deer herd in Marengo Co are 0, and I think everyone involved already knows this. Look at what the al.com article says:

>>>He also said the project could return long-term economic impacts to Marengo County, where hunters are already an important source of revenue.

"A study by Black Belt Adventures showed that hunting is something like an $800 million dollar business in Alabama and a tremendous amount of that money is spent to hunt in the Black Belt," Smith said. "Obviously, we would like to get Marengo County its fair share of that."

Alabama Black Belt Adventures is a nonprofit organization committed to promoting outdoor recreation and tourism opportunities in the state's 23-county Black Belt region, including its acclaimed hunting and fishing opportunities, according to its Web site.<<<

This isn't about deer as much as it is about money for an economically depressed area. I think the project is already successful in accomplishing its real objective. I've heard politicians say that any publicity is good publicity, and they are already getting a lot of publicity. I don't think the desire to improve the economic condition of a poor county should be written off as "greed."

3) From what I've read, I don't think there was ever any intention of releasing 200" bucks the might be shot before the rut. Again, from the al.com article:

>>>While the bucks they plan to release will be primarily young deer, Smith said their family tree should ensure they will have trophy class potential locked in their genes.

"We're not going to be releasing any 200-inch bucks out there, but they will have the genetic potential to pass on those traits," Smith said. "I think this is the first program of its kind, and it's a revolutionary approach to enhancing genetics in a wild herd.<<<

So they are gonna release some yearling bucks, and there will be no reasonable way to tell them from the other deer in the area. Are the deer in Marengo Co really "native" deer? I know they aren't in most of the state. Our deer came from all over the place, so how can adding a few more really make that much difference either way, good or bad?

4) There have been hints in this thread that the originators of the BBP project hope to cause local hunters to exercise more "trigger control." I'd say its very likely that will happen, and if it does, its very likely that the county will quickly produce bigger bucks. And when it does, eureka! The project did work in spite of all the naysayers. It kinda reminds me of the state implementing a buck limit to try to reduce the buck harvest and using the annual hunter survey to measure the success. What kind of idiot would admit on a form sent in to the state that he had killed over the limit? The odds of the buck limit being a "success" were 100% because of the way they decided to measure the results. But the buck limit has changed hunter attitudes to some extent, so I guess that is a "success."

5) My final point - the only folks likely to benefit in any sort of hunting way will be the few folks that manage to shoot one of the selectively bred bucks that lives long enough to grow a big set of antlers, and that probably won't be many people. But every big buck killed in the county will soon be attributed to the BBP, and there will be a lot more folks wanting to hunt in the area. Lodges will be able to charge more, some new lodges will go into business, and lease prices will go up.

And there will be a little more money to spread around in Marengo Co. I don't see that as a bad thing. If this spreads some kind of disease, then it will have been a disaster, but the high fence operations are already out there and I can't see how letting a few of the deer out will be that much different from what we already have.

I don't think the sky will fall over this. I could be wrong; might oughta buy you a hardhat before they start turning them loose.

Good hunting to all!

you do realize those tests are on DEAD deer as there is currently no usable test for live deer...

Yes I do know that and was just saying that from what I have read if deer on a game farm test positive it is a death sentence for ALL the other deer on that farm.

poorcountrypreacher i agree 100%. This whole thread is about a few guys who want to talk big and start a whole lot about nothing. And like i said in my first post if your not from down here or at least hunt around here then go bother someone else.

This whole debate started with some of us saying that it was about money and that it wouldn't work anyway. If there is a .001% chance that it could spread ANY disease I am against it because thats a higher percentage than the chance of it improving anything in the herd. I am all for education and would love to see more trigger control as they put it. If thats what they are trying to do why not spend all that money on educating hunters instead? I still say some deer farmers are what is pushing it and they stand to make bigger bucks but not the kind with antlers.

A Wheat Ridge biotechnology company says it has developed the first test for chronic wasting disease in live animals.
The only valid tests for CWD, the elk and deer equivalent of mad cow disease, require the animal to be killed to collect a brain sample. That has resulted in the slaughter of more than 10,000 ranched elk and thousands of deer by U.S. and Canadian officials.

The new test finds CWD-caused changes in the blood-cell genes of animals known to be infected, said Dr. Tony Milici, chief executive officer of GeneThera.

Nobody went anywhere to bother you. YOU CAME HERE and started telling people to shutup on your first post is how I remember it.

No deer farmers are pushing this! Fact! Some realestate guys trying to sell more alnd in west alabvama might be a reason though
!

So the FACT that that they stand to make hundreds of thousands of dollars off of these deer when they sell them doesn't make you question that statement?

No, listen i know these guys you dont!

Yea figured you would have to weigh in..On the other side!!
1)Fair or not, THIS is from their website:


2)I agree, very little chance of ANY effect on the genetics of Marengo co.... so why say you plan on "restoring record breaking genetics" there? Truth in advertising - importantly TRUTH. However, you have to agree there IS a risk, so why not just do it in a high fence and not risk other landowners deer herd?

4) Again truth in advertising. Is this project supposed to improve Marengo co's genetics? Increase income to the county? Increase land sales at Tutt land? Which is it? Lets be honest.


I agree, the odds of anything changing in the deer herd is nil, maybe in hunter attitudes, but as I said, they already have an excellent platform to "educate hunters" on the benefits of quality HABITAT management, burning, thinning and such. In my opinion, this would have a HUGE positive impact on the deer herd in Marengo county, provide education for Marengo and surrounding countues, increase bookings at local lodges AND increase land sales at Tutt land. THis would be a REAL project that would be lauded by biologists and hunters alike. Heck I might even volunteer some time! Might even go over well here at aldeer!!

As usual you HAD to pick the opposing side



Nice job PCP, encourage him. Equivalent to coming uninvited to someones backyard BBQ complaining about the food and telling the homeowner to "go bother someone else" when he tells you to get lost.

Gobbler, I didn't think I was taking anyone's side; just telling the truth as I saw it. They can call the deer whatever they want, but they are not genetically modified. At least, I don't think they are. If they are the product of something more than selective breeding, then please post that and I will change my tune in a hurry. I think calling them Frankenbucks and all the kind of stuff is helping the project instead of hurting it. They've now got a 6 page post on aldeer, with folks greatly exaggerating the impact of what they are gonna do - that's just what they need.

About 8 or 9 years ago there was a post about a high fence operation in the state and the aldeer gang showed no mercy in their criticism. I found out later that the guy was swarmed with phone calls from people wanting to come hunt the enclosure. He didn't have enough deer and had to turn most of them away. For every aldeer poster blasting them, there must have been 10 others reading who would have been happy to shoot one of those big bucks.

Keep telling the world that the BBP involves genetically modified Frankenbucks and you are doing just what they want. Truth in advertising works both ways.

I didn't mention any poster by name, and didn't agree or disagree with anyone personally. I just tried to point out that the project is unlikely to have any effect on the deer herd either way, and the only way it will impact people is if they get lots of publicity - good or bad.

A good day to all!

just what is, and how do you "make" a "genetically modified" buck???

My dumb arse thought you raised huge bucks by having healthy deer over successive generations and by selectively breeding them..

I don't think this project will do what they say it will do but there are some really wild ass statements put on here......


gig em preacher....

My dumb arse thought you raised big bucks by maximizing habitat with things like, timber harvest,burning,quality year round food plots, etc. Then letting them reach the age of 4 years and beyond. Playing the cards you're delt. Didn't know one had to release super bucks from a pen. This is just "trophyism" gone wild.

Whatever the outcome, it will put $$ in someone's pocket... And THAT is the WHOLE idea behind it....

I was referring to enclosure deer.....you know, those "genetically altered" deer...

you are correct on free range deer, age/age/age/habitat/more age

When did i brag about anything Gobbler? I asked you a ?. You said you were a biologist and knew most of the bioogist in the State. I simply aksed if you knew these guys, that i thought they were great men. Thats not bragging,thats not talking sh!t thats asking a question!

When did i say this was a good idea? Or when did i say i supported this idea? Ive said form the start that i thought this was a waste of time and money!

You are the one who said that if you dont know the biologist i was refering to then he must be a noboby! I can tell you this i would take bets on how many meaningful research projects have been done on whitetails in the last few yrs in alaabama that he was not directly a part of!

And if you dont see where you guys have been BELITTERING everyone involed then you ned to get your head out of your a$$!

PCP makes a comment that doesnt fall in line 100% with your thinking and you comment about him!

Not everyone has to think like you! If i want to ask poeple to stop talking down to othesr or simply say shutup then thats ok! Its funny how i never used a name but the 2 main ones on here doing all the trashing are the ones who took offense to it!

You dont know everything nor do I. I would think that you know a lot more about the potential effects this could have on deer than i do. But that not what i posted about. I did say that i thought most ofthe peopel on here crying ove this have no idea what they are even crying about! You and maybe others might!

My point from the start was instead of getting on a computer and trashing guys why dont you act like a adult and call the guys at Tutt LC. That might actually help your caUSE.

Are you against feeding deer in trough? Or on the ground or at all? This would encourages deer to be in a confined area! This is how a lot of these diseases are tranfered! Im mean its a .001% chance that using mineral blocks and feeding deer can cause serious harm to a herd if a single deer using this was sick! This is true, so why are we not so passionate about guys feeding deer?