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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 739
4 point
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4 point
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 739 |
I don't believe your going to change the genetic makeup of free ranging whitetails in Alabama. I believe it all comes down to money. Game breeders are just trying to find another way to make even more money from ignorant landowners. Personally I don't believe their going to be allowed to release deer into the wild anyways. So, its really mute point. Love to hear someone like BSK or Dr. Ditchkoff respond.
QDMA- Let him go so he can grow. www.qdma.com“Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.” Aldo Leopold
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,713
8 point
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8 point
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,713 |
Here are a couple of Dr.Ditchkoff's quote regarding the release of the breeder bucks.
"Any time deer are moved across the landscape, risk factors for disease transmission increase," said Dr. Steve Ditchkoff, Professor of Wildlife Science at Auburn University in Alabama.
"Introducing a small number of breeder bucks into a free-ranging whitetail population is highly unlikely to affect genetics at the population level," said Dr. Ditchkoff. "Not only is survival of captive-raised deer often very low when they are released into the wild, basic science suggests that the genetic impact of a few animals would be quickly diluted."
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673 |
I think those people don't know much about whitetail deer and enjoy wasting money.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,172
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,172 |
I think it's stupid to tell people where you plan to drop them. That's gonna create all kinds of problems. But hey, if you got the money you could pay them to drop donkeys off. They don't care about genetics.
Bass Bandito
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 |
This is a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE idea. Not only is the whole concept scientifically dubious (the idea that "trophy genetics" are passed on in a straight line progression from large-antlered bucks; that there is anything wrong with the genetics of the local deer population; and that a few individuals released into a population of thousands would have any genetic impact), but risky to the point of outright irresponsibility considering that the translocation of captive deer is the primary agent spreading CWD into wild populations.
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,479
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,479 |
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673 |
This is a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE idea. Not only is the whole concept scientifically dubious (the idea that "trophy genetics" are passed on in a straight line progression from large-antlered bucks; that there is anything wrong with the genetics of the local deer population; and that a few individuals released into a population of thousands would have any genetic impact), but risky to the point of outright irresponsibility considering that the translocation of captive deer is the primary agent spreading CWD into wild populations. You got it! So glad I don't live near there, I'd be using a lot of time trying to stop it. You folks in that area better start making some phones ring! If the deer releasers introduce CWD or anything for that matter, could they be sued?
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539 |
my brother in law, who owns land in Marengo Co., showed that to me last weekend. I didn't want to argue about it but my feelings are it will not work, at all. Way too many variables in a free range herd and then you have years and years of genetics already in the native herd. If transplanting deer could change genetics then our deer would be the same size as Michigan deer...
My other opinion is some hunters are WAY too worried about genetics and killing "monster bucks". This can be accredited to hunting shows and bad education and misunderstanding. These "types" bother me more than the type that kill every buck they see...
Last edited by truedouble; 09/28/12 12:06 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025 |
so a hunter, like myself, that passes on dozens of buck(big and small) while waiting on a "monster" is worse than the fella that shot all the bucks I let walk....  ...thats some good thinking....NOT.
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969
12 point
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12 point
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,969 |
My other opinion is some hunters are WAY too worried about genetics and killing "monster bucks". This can be accredited to hunting shows and bad education and misunderstanding. Yup. For the life of me, I can't understand why some hunters are so quick to jump all over the "genetics" explanation, when the real answer is so simple--habitat quality. Maybe it's because "genetics" is a simple answer that appeals to simple minds. These "types" bother me more than the type that kill every buck they see... Agreed. They are for more dangerous to the welfare of deer than the young buck killers.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025 |
I read somewhere that 70% of what a deer will be comes for the doe. I asked several deer breeders and they say the same thing the passing of traits varies from deer to deer, just like cattle/horses/dogs etc. Some bucks breed true, some (a lot) of does throw buck babies that look more like their daddy than the buck they were bred to. 70% is just a wild ass guess...
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025 |
My other opinion is some hunters are WAY too worried about genetics and killing "monster bucks". This can be accredited to hunting shows and bad education and misunderstanding. Yup. For the life of me, I can't understand why some hunters are so quick to jump all over the "genetics" explanation, when the real answer is so simple--habitat quality. Maybe it's because "genetics" is a simple answer that appeals to simple minds. These "types" bother me more than the type that kill every buck they see... Agreed. They are for more dangerous to the welfare of deer than the young buck killers. Please explain to my dumb arse how my hunting style (average killing an over mature 5-6-7 year old buck every two years) is "more dangerous to the welfare of deer" than the fella that shoots the same buck( or several) at one or two years of age. I'd say I'm having almost no effect on the local herd....
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539 |
so a hunter, like myself, that passes on dozens of buck(big and small) while waiting on a "monster" is worse than the fella that shot all the bucks I let walk.... ...thats some good thinking....NOT. maybe you should read my post again...but then again, I thought you shot mature bucks, regardless of score, so what's your point? I've seen pictures of some of the bucks you've killed and in my opinion they are all trophies b/c of their age, but not many/ any would be considered "monsters". I'll clarify...my issue or better yet my opinion on the subject is trying to change genetics in free range (esp. in Al.) is unachievable ,thus this "project" is a complete pipe dream and is clearly being orchestrated by someone that doesn't understand free range deer. My other opinion is that this "type" of hunter is bad for the sport...just like I believe penned hunts and breeder bucks are bad for the sport..and I would rather go back to a buck a day limit than have laws and regs change to support hunting over bait and bringing in genetically altered bucks... both are terrible but I think the long term consequences of the latter of the two is worse.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,539 |
My other opinion is some hunters are WAY too worried about genetics and killing "monster bucks". This can be accredited to hunting shows and bad education and misunderstanding. Yup. For the life of me, I can't understand why some hunters are so quick to jump all over the "genetics" explanation, when the real answer is so simple--habitat quality. Maybe it's because "genetics" is a simple answer that appeals to simple minds. These "types" bother me more than the type that kill every buck they see... Agreed. They are for more dangerous to the welfare of deer than the young buck killers. Please explain to my dumb arse how my hunting style (average killing an over mature 5-6-7 year old buck every two years) is "more dangerous to the welfare of deer" than the fella that shoots the same buck( or several) at one or two years of age. I'd say I'm having almost no effect on the local herd.... you're missing the point. This thread isn't about letting bucks walk and targeting mature bucks...it's about trying to alter the genetics of a free range herd by "brining in" bucks that have bigger horns... In fact the article says nothing about the fact that most bucks killed in Al. or 2 or younger...that has FAR more to do with the score of bucks being killing in Marengo Co. than genetics. My brother in law's place in Marengo Co. and surrounding area probably has some of the best bucks in Alabama. I wouldn't touch those genetics even if it was possible. They kill plenty of 140's and an occasional true stud.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673 |
I agree Bfred, I read every post about 3 times and couldn't make the connection to you. I think you did miss the point.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
spike
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spike
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82 |
Here is what I know....good nutrition certainly helps deer grow bigger racks over time. However, in Crenshaw Co for example, the vast majority of your 4-5 yr old deer will not exceed 130-140 inches. I believe that throwing in some larger genetics into the herd while properly managing the domestic heard will certainly help. I think the idea of the big buck project is fantastic. I agree that it is not going to make a difference in Marengo county because they are not going to be able to raise enough funds to do it on a big enough scale to see results..especially since they are allowing hunters to immediately shoot the bucks they release. I'm in no way associated with the guys doing the buck project in Marengo county but when I heard about it I started thinking about how you really could make a big impact across the state.
Hear are my thoughts (just big picture)....
If the State of Alabama put with every hunting license bought each year an optional tag that cost $10 that would go towards releasing big bucks in your county of choice over the next 3 years. Then break it down in priority to the counties with the most tags.
If the Dept of Conservation was running this program and could have a few reputable dealers that could really check the deer for diseases etc and know that it would not be a threat to Alabama's Deer heard, I think it could really make a big difference.
Just thought I would throw a different opinion into the mix.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 37,025 |
I agree Bfred, I read every post about 3 times and couldn't make the connection to you. I think you did miss the point. he didn't get no virgin, I've missed points before.... 
I've spent most of the money I've made in my lifetime on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted.....
proud Cracker-Americaan
muslims are like coyotes, only good one is a dead one
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 37,673 |
Here is what I know....good nutrition certainly helps deer grow bigger racks over time. However, in Crenshaw Co for example, the vast majority of your 4-5 yr old deer will not exceed 130-140 inches. I believe that throwing in some larger genetics into the herd while properly managing the domestic heard will certainly help. I think the idea of the big buck project is fantastic. I agree that it is not going to make a difference in Marengo county because they are not going to be able to raise enough funds to do it on a big enough scale to see results..especially since they are allowing hunters to immediately shoot the bucks they release. I'm in no way associated with the guys doing the buck project in Marengo county but when I heard about it I started thinking about how you really could make a big impact across the state.
Hear are my thoughts (just big picture)....
If the State of Alabama put with every hunting license bought each year an optional tag that cost $10 that would go towards releasing big bucks in your county of choice over the next 3 years. Then break it down in priority to the counties with the most tags.
If the Dept of Conservation was running this program and could have a few reputable dealers that could really check the deer for diseases etc and know that it would not be a threat to Alabama's Deer heard, I think it could really make a big difference.
Just thought I would throw a different opinion into the mix. You kiddin'? Where in Alabama do the vast majority of 4-5 yr olds exceed 140? I'll not touch the rest of your post.
"Why do you ask"?
Always vote the slowest path to socialism.
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
spike
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spike
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82 |
The post reads the vast majority will never reach 130-140". This is why I like the idea of mixing in some 180" deer to help bring some 150" deer into the area. Just my opinion.
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