I've went out and camped at the Horse trail on the last 2 muzzle loader hunts and just drove through 33 this week. I know there is a lot of big old hardwoods that doesn't produce a lot of forage but i believe they have spent some time trying to help that. There is a good deal of land where they have burned especially in some of the pine stands and looks to have plenty of browse especially right now.

Bankhead don’t have a habitat problem. It’s got areas of complete canopy cover within the Sipsey Wilderness, but there’s plenty of hardwood regen, forbs and woody plants on that place. Way more than what the deer can utilize. I NEVER saw browse pressure on even the most highly preferred deer plants there. That population has always had a hard time increasing in number. It’s not habitat related.

So are the reproductive rates of the northern strain lower than the southern deer on average???

We did fawn recruitment camera surveys there and we didn’t get enough of a sample size to draw any definitive conclusions. I am of the opinion that population has had a harder time with recruitment due to southern strains of EHD and their immunity hasn’t been exposed to that but for 100 years. I think it takes longer to build adequate resistant to naturally fight that off. I could be wrong.

Sounds like what Ron thought was happening. Low numbers and slow recruitment was his thoughts at the time.

It was always fun talking to Ron back when I was excited about deer management and our club. He was interested because we had what we assumed to be the WI strain of deer like Waterloo. The rut was always around Christmas and I assume that was from mixing with the local genetics. Talking to the guys now it appears the rut has moved to the traditional timers 3rd week of January. During my 12 plus years in the club I could count on 1 hand how many mature bucks were killed during January. The whole place shutdown just like Waterloo did. Not no more though.

That makes sense....... It certainly doesnt help their case any as far as the discussion were having here......Reckon they should shut down any doe killing on Bankhead or just let it play out however it plays out???

The best genetics in the state, excellent age structure due to vast areas to hide from hunters, and enough food due to one of the lowest deer densities in the state.

When I was on Black Warrior I cut back the doe days. By the time I left the hunters seemed very happy about it and many commented how they were seeing more deer than they used to. Not sure what is being done now. I haven’t looked at a map/permit in years.

Age structure has a LOT to do with it. There’s a lot of ground that don’t get pressured and deer can simply add birthdays. The health of those deer is what I would consider very good. KFI was always good, average body weights were good, and the average age of bucks killed was about as good as you’d see on any property in the southern US.

Here is a more realistic representation of what those “bubbles” actually look like. Its not to mean that all of these bubbles are different but rather these are the places where breaks are likely occurring when they do. There’s more to be considered though than just this……you have to also factor in major rivers and habitat breaks and how they have had an impact…..they are also creating "breaks"

Take our Bankhead scenario here as an example of the complexities at play. I’m assuming you have Nov ruts on either side of that highway dissecting the forest . That whole area saw growth originally and spread does outward within both “bubbles”……What really the most important is what has happened since then. The Bankhead herd only progressed halfway across that western bubble due to running out of habitat……Things have changed over time and now you have a new stocking pushing in and meeting in halfway……That larger western bubble we see on this map is now being further divided again with a smaller interior road.

The kicker here is that as your roads get smaller and less traveled, they become more permeable dividing lines……So you need less pressure pushing eastward to jump the boundary. If it were an interstate then Bankhead would probably be safe……but as it is, that little road where I drew the solid red line in the previous map is likely to eventually give way if it hasn’t already. It’s likely that at least that western bubble will eventually transition to the other stocking source.

This is how the rut has evolved and is still currently evolving in Alabama……Every little area and bubble has its own little nuances but they all follow these same concepts or dynamics…..rules……whatever you want to call them. Again, keep in mind here how we allowed herd to expand outward originally and then drew down the population again…..As we drew down the numbers these lines really began to be more and more defining as there was very little outward pushing occurring…...only recycling of the lineage or lineages within the bubble.....The more folks stop shooting does in the future, the more you’ll have these Bankhead type scenarios occurring…..or the more interplay you’ll see cranking up between bubbles and the more potential for something change. Some areas are more susceptible than others.

From a deer management perspective these bubbles are what should probably be your “management units”……Now I’m definitely NOT saying that we need to subdivide everything to this extent so we can make separate rules for every one……..No……No…..No……and its why even starting to chop things up more and more is a slippery slope……..I’m saying that if I’m one of the state biologists monitoring our deer situation, then this is how it should probably be analyzed.....each bubble as a unit. Female road mortality and roadside feeding around the perimeter of each bubble will tell you a lot about what is occurring within the bubble from a population standpoint. I aint saying that’s all you gotta look at….but it says a lot.

If anyone is confused at this point……just remember we’re talking specifically about the doe herds and the dynamics of how their populations exist. The roads create the boundaries by moderating the excess does if/when growth begins to occur……which depends on reproductive rates and how many does hunters shoot within an individual bubble.

You’re giving way too much credit to man-made boundaries, like roads.

Do you believe in that rut map the DCNR put out???......Do you think those circles just end somewhere in the middle of farmer Brown's pine stand???

I’ve lived right along one of those boundaries for nearly 20 years and watched exactly what impact these roadways have on the doe herds…..

Here's a real basic diagram showing how the roads are impacting doe herds…..

The black lines represent highways. Generally speaking, doe herd expansion occurs in a series of overlapping home ranges of different doe groups…..kind of like petals on a flower……When expansion pushes to the road and you start getting doe groups that try to use both sides of the highway on a regular basis…..that petal eventually gets clipped off….Does who try use both side don’t live long and prosperous lives. They actually get knocked off pretty rapidly when they do that. It likely takes a situation where there’s some serious expansion pressure occurring with no pushback from the other direction for does to jump the boundary and never come back. We don’t have many expanding herds though or haven’t had for quite some time….so there isnt much potential for many to be bucking the system. A few do.....but a few dont change anything....they just create a little variance around the perimeter.

Hunter doe harvest and reproductive success within the bubble determines whether there is any expansion of doe herds trying to occur……Road mortality defines the line where that expansion is likely to stop…..(along with major rivers and habitat breaks)

Here’s you another example Matt to show the concept……Let’s say we have two different doe populations existing on either side of a highway and nobody is shooting does on either side….. so both herds are trying to grow and expand outward……What type of mortality will likely moderate this push of "expansion" and where will it happen???

And his understanding of genetics and many, many other factors. But he can color like a son of a gun.

CNC posting up on this one