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Iso
by AustinC. 05/21/24 05:01 PM
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10 registered members (janiemae, Ryano, CAL, jake5050, BCLC, Okalona, Four_Horse, sw1002, 2 invisible),
629
guests, and 0
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: CNC]
#3807448
12/08/22 02:03 PM
12/08/22 02:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,349 Georgia and Missouri
Semo
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,349
Georgia and Missouri
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OK? I'm just saying you seem very interested in these topics. You have all the info at your fingertips, but don't get blinded by specific locations, species, and/or habitats. Animal populations across species can have similar dispersal techniques.
I'll just say, the more you learn the less you'll think you know.
I'm just not sure I'm following the criticism.......Where are the inaccuracies in the things I've said?? Dude, you are responding to your own questions in this thread. I admit I haven't read all of what you are writing (lots of words). I never said you were wrong, nor did I say I agreed with your posts. You can get a little obsessed over topics and beat them like a dead horse. As far as anthropomorphism: "because it creates more movement amongst the females in late winter as they feel like they have to defend the castle." that is a textbook definition right there! You took an opinion you have as to why does may be more mobile and espoused a human derived reason to explain it. I will say it again, there are thousands of studies that are out there if you are interested.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: abolt300]
#3807651
12/08/22 07:03 PM
12/08/22 07:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,721 Mobile, AL
Pwyse
10 point
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10 point
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,721
Mobile, AL
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CNC, how big (acreage wise) is the place where you regularly hunt, and from which you are making these profound and enlightening observations regarding deer populations and mgmt strategies on? Not to be rude, but while you track on a lot of different properties, you're not physically on them enough to be able to use anything that you think you might see, or thing you know about them, in any relevant application.
Deer management is not a one size fits all application. Everything in deer management is an ever changing variable. Examples:
1) Say you've got 1000 acres and it's all big timber with some thick bedding areas and large destination foodplots with neighbors that shoot everything. You might not need to pull the trigger at all depending on your population and how much damage the neighbors are doing on their property or you might need to shoot a few does based on what you're taking off your property buck wise.
2) Now lets say that same situation changes and they clearcut 700 of the 1000 acres. You're destination plots may still pull deer, but the pull will be diminished during hunting hours due to all that open ground around them. You also will not be holding near the deer that you did when all 1000 acres was thick timber. You probably dont need to shoot anything for a few years, especially with your neighbors taking care of business.
3) Fast forward 5 yrs and you now have 700 acres of grown up cutover, full of heavy cover and massive amounts of browse along with large destination plots and 300 acres of big timber. Perfect habitat and most likely, you'll be experiencing a population boom as a result and you might need to kill 8-12 does depending on your recruitment and survival rates, and once again, what your neighbors are killing.
4) Now, lets say youve got the exact same situation above with the 5 yr thick cutover and 2 years earlier, all the property around you (5000 acres) got bought up by a bunch of big money doctors from Bham that only shoot 5+ yr old trophies and refuse to pull the trigger on a doe. With that being the case, you might have to shoot 15-20 does to keep things where they need to be because you will quickly be overrun with deer.
All of these situations might happen on the exact same 1000 acre property over a 5-7 yr period and each requires a different approach. It also doesnt even address whats happening with the habitat on the other properties around you which would cause you to have to further evaluate each situation. The final thing that nobody has mentioned above is buck dispersal. It is a proven fact that a mother doe will run her yearling buck fawns off. Average dispersal distance ranges from less than 2 miles to sometimes up to 20 miles, so if you are not turning over/shooting any of your mature momma does, all of the buck fawns, born on your property, are most likely leaving and taking up residence on the neighbors or your neighbors neighbors. In scenario 1, this is not a good situation because with your immediate neighbors killing every young buck they see, you're simply not going to be replacing many of your bucks. Scenario 2 is even worse because you dont have anything to attract what few dispersed bucks that are available. Scenario 3 is a little better in that you've got prime buck habitat so you'll pick up a few. Scenario 4 is a best case scenario because you'll have prime habitat and a bunch of bucks dispersing from the properties around you over onto yours.
You can kill the required does without drastically impacting anything. Practice low impact hunting and keep pressure down. Use 4 wheelers and atvs ONLY to retrieve deer and not for routine travel. Do not shoot your does with rifles and most especially, do not shoot does on or near you greenfields or feeding areas. Kill them with bows or crossbows in areas away from your feeding locations. Keep the noise and activity on your property to an absolute minimum. In the case of the 1000 acres, hunt no more than 4 people on it. If the weather sucks and is not conducive to good deer movement, dont go. If the wind is wrong or marginal for a stand you want to hunt, dont hunt it. As I've said before, I'd rather hunt a whole lot less days, but have fantastic quality hunts and an opportunity to see a pile of deer and bucks, every time I get in a stand.
Last part of deer management is pressure and people management. I promise you, you can put me and 3 like minded guys on the same 1000 acre piece one year and we might hunt a total of 40-50 man days or (8-12 days in total for each man, during the entire season). You can put a normal 8 or 10 man Alabama club on that same 1000 acres the following year and they would probably put in 200 plus man days of hunting. I can promise you that if you kept detailed observation data for both seasons. My group of 4, hunting the way I described above will see 3-4 times as many total does, 5 times as many total overall bucks and 10 times as many mature bucks as the 8 or 10 man club will, on the exact same property. It's just the way it works. Be careful abolt, that post made a lot of sense and we can’t have that in a whitetail management thread. Please take your sensible points over to the buffet or football forum. It’s not allowed here.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: CNC]
#3807740
12/08/22 08:47 PM
12/08/22 08:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 39,471 Marshall County
FurFlyin
Freak of Nature
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Freak of Nature
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 39,471
Marshall County
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OK? I'm just saying you seem very interested in these topics. You have all the info at your fingertips, but don't get blinded by specific locations, species, and/or habitats. Animal populations across species can have similar dispersal techniques.
I'll just say, the more you learn the less you'll think you know.
I'm just not sure I'm following the criticism.......Where are the inaccuracies in the things I've said?? It's the delivery, and the overly wordy posts and that you think you're the smartest person on here. That's why
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: FurFlyin]
#3807818
12/08/22 09:46 PM
12/08/22 09:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083
Awbarn, AL
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It's the delivery, and the overly wordy posts and that you think you're the smartest person on here. That's why
The delivery???......Overly wordy???........Sounds like you need stop whining and thicken your skin up if "the delivery" is hurting your feelings.....
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: abolt300]
#3807842
12/08/22 10:06 PM
12/08/22 10:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083
Awbarn, AL
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Not to be rude, but while you track on a lot of different properties, you're not physically on them enough to be able to use anything that you think you might see, or thing you know about them, in any relevant application. That’s just absurd……What do you think we talk about the whole time I’m riding through each property with these folks??..... You don’t think I’m observing the habitat and sign while I’m there as well?? I’ve been going to many of them annually for the last nine years and have been on them multiple times……I’ve sat around the campfires with guides and caretakers shooting the breeze and looking at trail cam pics. Not to mention I’ve lived there for 16 years. You’re off your rocker if you don’t think I have enough experience with the area to have an opinion.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3807854
12/08/22 10:17 PM
12/08/22 10:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15,601 Ourtown, AL
BCLC
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15,601
Ourtown, AL
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I like the discussions myself. Beats the hell out of another publix ribeye roast or bull dyke freed from prison thread. So what if CNC’s posts are long, he’s just thinking out loud. It has nothing to do with him thinking he’s better or smarter than anyone else. Good ol’fashioned conversation. . .that’s all.
We’re not dead. We just smell that way. Dayum. - AC870
Yessir! I’m always gonna shoot what makes me happy and I want everyone else to do the same! If you shoot one be proud of it and don’t worry what anyone else thinks. - SJ22
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: Mbrock]
#3807865
12/08/22 10:30 PM
12/08/22 10:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15,601 Ourtown, AL
BCLC
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15,601
Ourtown, AL
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I don’t have a problem with it, and honestly wish I had more time to put into but I don’t. CNC does see a lot of land. His observations and opinions are valid. I disagree with some and agree with others. Honestly I figure if we sat down at the table and looked at the same information we’d likely have more in common than different. I’ve discovered that is the case very often, even with ppl who strongly disagree on internet chatter. You gotta knack for saying what I’m thinking but in a much more eloquent manner. Great post Matt
We’re not dead. We just smell that way. Dayum. - AC870
Yessir! I’m always gonna shoot what makes me happy and I want everyone else to do the same! If you shoot one be proud of it and don’t worry what anyone else thinks. - SJ22
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3807870
12/08/22 10:34 PM
12/08/22 10:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,651
abolt300
Booner
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Booner
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,651
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^^^ that I can definitely agree with. And CNC does raise some interesting ideas and provokes good conversation. “Managing” a 20, 40, or even 100 acre piece of ground is totally different than managing 1000, 2000 or 3000 acres of land, or a co-op. How you manage, what you can do, and what you can accomplish on a small property does not necessarily translate to larger properties. Like I said, managing deer is very property specific, not one size fits all.
Last edited by abolt300; 12/08/22 10:41 PM.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: abolt300]
#3808086
12/09/22 10:28 AM
12/09/22 10:28 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083
Awbarn, AL
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^^^ that I can definitely agree with. And CNC does raise some interesting ideas and provokes good conversation. “Managing” a 20, 40, or even 100 acre piece of ground is totally different than managing 1000, 2000 or 3000 acres of land, or a co-op. How you manage, what you can do, and what you can accomplish on a small property does not necessarily translate to larger properties. Like I said, managing deer is very property specific, not one size fits all. Tracking deer has given me a whole different perspective on the “scale” of the landscape here in Alabama and what we perceive as being a big piece of land. Seeing this property and then the one next to it and then the one next to that and so on just eliminates those boundaries in your mind that we form when we hunt one parcel……It’s much easier to see the landscape as a whole and in the scale that the deer sees it….. We think of 1500 or 2000 acres as “big” and stand alone when it comes to management but that’s so far from the reality. We tracked a deer the other day that jumped and went all the way through the neighbors 650 acre parcel in the blink of an eye. In most cases your overall hunting experience is still defined by the bigger subset area you exist within. Referring back to what you can and cant decipher about a property just from tracking deer on it. This is what trails look like on properties where there are a lot of deer. They’re everywhere and its not hard to see in comparison to those that don’t.
Last edited by CNC; 12/09/22 10:31 AM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: abolt300]
#3808137
12/09/22 11:41 AM
12/09/22 11:41 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,224 colbert county
cartervj
Old Mossy Horns
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Old Mossy Horns
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,224
colbert county
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^^^ that I can definitely agree with. And CNC does raise some interesting ideas and provokes good conversation. “Managing” a 20, 40, or even 100 acre piece of ground is totally different than managing 1000, 2000 or 3000 acres of land, or a co-op. How you manage, what you can do, and what you can accomplish on a small property does not necessarily translate to larger properties. Like I said, managing deer is very property specific, not one size fits all. The thing is everyone uses their personal perspective to apply globally. As in their experiences dictate what is true without accounting for another vantage point. Everyone does this. I used to argue with hogwild and others about doe killing. My experience was on 5,000 acre of mixed habitat. 2300 acres and 400 acre with extremely little pressure for a thousand of surrounding acres. I never thought of the 100 acre less or more management. He kept arguing and it finally sank in. A buddy has 300 acres and the surrounding landowners work together to make up several 1000 acres. I’ve alway agreed with CNC about the throw and mow system. I was doing that in the 90s because had little equipment. A fellow on QDMA sent to Rodale Institute on organic farming. They used crop in rotations to build soil. I was able to grow alfalfa using this system with very little fertilizer and more lime. Like Matt said, most are pretty close in agreement than not.
“Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell where they already have it.” ― Ronald Reagan
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3808189
12/09/22 01:10 PM
12/09/22 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083 Awbarn, AL
CNC
Dances With Weeds
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Dances With Weeds
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 22,083
Awbarn, AL
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If you really want to make wise management decisions then you need to zoom out to 30,000 ft and look at the larger subset area that you exist within…….The perimeter of a subset area will be defined by things like lakes, major habitat breaks, and major highways/interstates……..To what extent is the deer population maxed out within that subset???......THAT is what should be dictating the idea of how many does to shoot……If you start seeing assloads of road mortality on the perimeter, then it probably wouldn’t hurt to pull the trigger a little more on some places……If you start seeing zero road mortality…..then you might want to think about easing up…….A good example of this is that stretch of interstate up through TN and KY where road mortality is like a blood bath…..That’s a good indicator of a deer population likely pushing the limits of the habitat. Much of the road mortality is likely coming from subset areas trying to expand…….The highways and interstates are like mesh points that moderates the expansion when hunters don’t.
What if your property is the best fawning in the whole subset area and the biggest supporter of the bigger deer herd around you??? Shooting a bunch of the does from your property in this situation just limits the potential of the whole subset and limits the amount of bucks produced to fill up those secondary areas and eventually converge back on the high doe pop property come rut time. Deer management happens on a much bigger scale than how we often talk about it.
Last edited by CNC; 12/09/22 01:12 PM.
We dont rent pigs
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: 3FFarms]
#3808204
12/09/22 01:39 PM
12/09/22 01:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,214 Alabama
Shaneomac2
14 point
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14 point
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,214
Alabama
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INTERESTING 5 pages to say the least..
Georgia Football..Acts like Bama but has a trophy case like South Carolina.
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Re: Dry does: too many does spinoff
[Re: CNC]
#3808213
12/09/22 01:55 PM
12/09/22 01:55 PM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,349 Georgia and Missouri
Semo
12 point
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12 point
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 5,349
Georgia and Missouri
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If you really want to make wise management decisions then you need to zoom out to 30,000 ft and look at the larger subset area that you exist within…….The perimeter of a subset area will be defined by things like lakes, major habitat breaks, and major highways/interstates……..To what extent is the deer population maxed out within that subset???......THAT is what should be dictating the idea of how many does to shoot……If you start seeing assloads of road mortality on the perimeter, then it probably wouldn’t hurt to pull the trigger a little more on some places……If you start seeing zero road mortality…..then you might want to think about easing up…….A good example of this is that stretch of interstate up through TN and KY where road mortality is like a blood bath…..That’s a good indicator of a deer population likely pushing the limits of the habitat. Much of the road mortality is likely coming from subset areas trying to expand…….The highways and interstates are like mesh points that moderates the expansion when hunters don’t.
What if your property is the best fawning in the whole subset area and the biggest supporter of the bigger deer herd around you??? Shooting a bunch of the does from your property in this situation just limits the potential of the whole subset and limits the amount of bucks produced to fill up those secondary areas and eventually converge back on the high doe pop property come rut time. Deer management happens on a much bigger scale than how we often talk about it. I do really enjoy your posts CNC, so don't take this the wrong way....But that is the biggest pile of poop Ive read in quite some time. Road mortality has nothing to do with habitat quality and/or carrying capacity. Edit: well it may but in the inverse of what you are saying
Last edited by Semo; 12/09/22 01:56 PM.
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