Works for me

First three I killed I had no calls

Never killed one with calls - they don't have hands nor pockets

I KNOW I do see FAR more avian predators and I am SURE these are killing far more poults than they were in the 90's. Anyone got an answer for that one?

In a perfect scenario where we humans hadn’t manipulated the landscape so heavily, you would have a nice balance of habitat structure across the land that was comprised of a nice balance of grasses, broadleafs, and legumes……and that structure would be the driver for producing a nice balanced mix of cover and food where predator and prey populations also nicely balanced each other out…..They would go through ups and downs with the rainfall and vegetation but the end product that came out the back end would be in line with what the natural balance of vegetation was producing.

That’s NOT what we have happening now though…….We’re not even close to operating on that type of game board…..We humans have heavily influenced and manipulated not only the structure of the understory but we have also subsidized food sources that push these predator populations beyond natural levels……

For example with the structural difference……Instead of that natural mix of grass, broadleaf, legume…..we’ve converted HUUUUGE amounts of land to grass monocultures……doing this swings the balance in favor of some animals over others……One of the most important things is that it heavily increases rodent populations…….Lets add 5 or 6 chicken houses to the grass monocultured hay fields and you have a major rat producer that provides lots of quality resources for our predators but few for our desired species like turkey/deer…..That’s why areas like Sand Mt where I grew up have few turkey and deer but still have thriving coyote populations…..Another example of how we skew the predator balance is through our corn baiting…..That is directly introducing additional resources for nest raiders like coons to push their populations above what the land produces…..Even things like the chicken litter that’s being discussed….That’s a subsidized input being injected into the system to produce more grass that comes out the back end of our chain favoring the predators.

My point here is that when we get to this point we’re not really operating on an even playing field anymore with the predators….We’re not just gonna come out on the back end with a nice natural predator/prey relationship with turkey/deer/quail…We’ve done things to the landscape to tilt the benefit in the favor of predators and those things arent going away…. You’re not about to convert thousands of acres of chicken farms back to turkey habitat or anything like that. Even if you did convert one, habitat needs scale to truly be effective.

If we want to do something realistic to help then one of the biggest holes in the bucket is to try and moderate the predator load due to all of these imbalances so that the prey is able to exist in less than ideal habitat conditions…..Because even our “prime” habitat still has its issues.

My goodness. Not more of all this balance and "moderate" crap again.

You are like the noble savage theorist of modern day ecology.

...... That's pretty funny, I'll give you that

I enjoy most of your posts (sometimes they can be a bit long) .........

CNC, ,,,, nature is a boom and bust system not a balance if left alone.

here's your solution then. The state is managing the wildlife resources based solely on maximizing revenue, backroom deals, and recommendations from the CAB (very few if any of the members know much about wildlife management). I think that Chuckie likes to be seen as being "woke" among the outdoor crowd, dominant gobbler theory etc. Solve this problem and replace everyone currently involved, with a group of knowledgeable professionals that want to manage the state's wildlife resources for the health and sustainability of the wildlife,

It's not always a bottom up approach. Sometimes the problem is at the top and once you take the top off, the rest of the issues fix themselves.

So here is another consideration. In the late 90's when turkeys were everywhere and probably still expanding from restocking, I hunted hurtsboro/union springs area quail places a lot. There were a TON of turkeys. IMO, they were using excellent wildlife habitat but NOT optimal turkey habitat. The population was so high that they were almost forced to use habitat that they may not have used if there weren't turkeys everywhere already, even in the intensive pine plantations in the area. Fast forward to now. The habitat is pretty much the same, same burning, same predator control, same vast expanses of grasslands, same hardwood component, same vast acreage of large landowners......However FAR less turkeys. My theory is they never really liked managed quail plantations but did fine there and used them when all other quality habitat was already occupied. Not sure what this means but I think it is true - overall turkeys are down from a variety of factors and timber management on vast acreage of timberland is a big component. Are there more predators? Undoubtedly yes but I can't say I see more dead coons on the road than I did in the 90's. I KNOW I do see FAR more avian predators and I am SURE these are killing far more poults than they were in the 90's. Anyone got an answer for that one? Are our poult success and nesting success numbers down? according to the current research there is a lower nest success and brood survival than before BUT they are using more advanced telemetry devices that may be better at detecting early nests making it look like they are less successful.

I am convinced part of the decline is "natural" and that the post-restocking numbers we saw in the 90's were unsustainable. We may ne more in the "norm" now but there is other factors driving lowered recruitment. We are NOT replacing the birds like we used to and need to. If it isn't harvest (and I don't think it is) and we don't seem to be getting nest hatched and poults raised into the adult population how do we do it? Is chicken litter killing poults? maybe. Is aflatoxin killing poults in fall then they are small and every deer hunter is pouring corn on the ground? Probably. Is nest success down due to more predators eating eggs, probably. Is vast acreage of pine plantation and the management associated with it making huge acreages unsuitable for turkeys, probably. I still wonder why, when I could regularly hear 10-12 birds gobble from one spot in an open pineywoods quail plantation in the 90's and now, if I am near a hardwood drain on the edge of pineywoods, maybe hear 3-5??? Just musings