I’m not genetics expert, but looking at that map we have no idea who, what, where, when, or how the deer are where they are in Alabama.

I’ve always found it odd that in chambers county you can kill a deer one one end of the county that looks nothing like a deer killed closer to Lee county. Same in tallapoosa county. We kill deer on 1 side of 280 that weigh over 200 pounds and score 115. Drive 9 miles up the road across 280 and there are 170 pound 130 and 140 inch deer killed every year.

There’s no explanation for it.

You would/ could have the same bucks breeding nov through Jan, since all they are waiting on is a mature doe to kick it off. It would also explain seeing a more intense rut in the area. Drawing more bucks in, while you still have the smaller number of doe in estrous at that time. By default, competition would be higher. Now THAT would be a solid theory. No real hard line. Just less intense rut noticed the further you get away from the core of the smaller genetic pool..... less competition. In my mind that's what makes areas like that special, more mature bucks pulled into a smaller area, for a small window of time. My .02

Wouldnt the flip side of this also be true in that there will be bucks leave Bankhead as well later in the year to go to these other areas in just the reverse process?......So what is it that's holding Bankhead stable over time?

Yeah, you would have the reverse process. The factor is more doe in the surrounding areas with a later date, therefore they would not have to move as much for those opportunities. The more major movement would occur getting to the small pool. Bucks that did migrate, would only have to travel just far enough to start picking up later hot doe on the "fringe", so less movement than initially, as they make their way back to core area by end of the rut. Some may stay. Like people some move more, some less. Just like you have northern gene bucks that will never leave the forest, and some that will. So nothing would, or will be exact. Just my .02, just an opinion.

I do feel like there is a good possibility the doe population in a certain area will influence their doe offspring. Nov doe will have nov doe offspring and visa versa. Thats why the northern rut gene has sustained. Just like any other species, the buck is ready anytime, he's just waiting for the doe to get right.

Buck distribution is not just about how far they travel during the rut though……buck dispersal is actually a much bigger force in spreading things around……You have buck fawns being born from Nov does inside the circle that are dispersing as yearlings likely miles away from Bankhead to begin with and vice versa......See why this idea that bucks have ANY influence quickly fails when you apply it to what is actually happening?

We can see this “isolated doe population” concept playing out plain as day with the Bankhead example……..Now to see the bigger picture of whats happening on a state level….zoom out to 30,000 feet and this doe isolation concept is playing out over and over again…..Just start there with a given “truth” that does ARE being isolated in different areas caused by major highways, major rivers, and major habitat fragmentation breaks… It's not just one spot…The DCNR map shows us that...…What is occurring within each isolated population just depends on what got isolated after restocking either by chance or by natural selection……Its not JUST areas of Nov and January intermingling but also areas of early Jan and late January or even areas like 2dogs mentioned where restockings likely merged with some original native deer in the northeast corner much the same way native deer merged in Russel Co……Yes, it’s a real hodge podge but there is a pattern to the madness

Now I’m about to bring up the idea of “units” but don’t mistake that for thinking I’m in favor of chopping the state up because I believe we need just the opposite…………But from a standpoint of studying what is happening and even monitoring……the way populations should likley be divided up and viewed should first start by subdividing the state into units separated by the major interstates…….from there you would further subdivide each section again divided by major highways and rivers inside of that unit…..and from there would subdivide it again within that unit by any major habitat fragmentation breaks that exist…….Sampling those subsets would most accurately “hone in” on what is occurring…….keeping in mind that if you sample a fringe area you are likely going to show variance……Samples should be taken toward the center of the isolated population to get the most accurate information.

I'm agreeing that the bucks have no influence on the estrous cycle. The doe fawns mother would dictate when she comes in estrous. You could take a buck from where ever, he'll still only breed her when shes ready.

Yes, the buck will spread his genetics, but I do not believe he will be a factor in his offsprings estrous cycle.

We have smaller red/sandy deer, and big bodied blue/gray deer in areas I hunt. But.... the rut takes place like clockwork every year in those areas.

I have a euro that I plan to compare with one I've got buried right now.. same age, same area.... I plan to take measurements to see the contrast.

But still the doe population comes in heat the same time in Jan every year.


But I'm certainly no scientist. Just observations.

Funny thing is, the smaller deer seem to have more points/length, the bigger blue/gray deer generally more mass.

The reason why I am not in favor of trying to have different season dates for a bunch of these different areas is because when you look at what is actually happening on the ground you see that we are a very intermingled hodge podge across short distances in most areas of the state in some way or another……When you look at the map you can already see some of these areas that have been identified like in St. Clair Co and Madison Co…….It is almost a certainty that a true map with complete data would should these individual areas to be larger and more numerous……It only stands to complicate things if you try and make a different season for each different little area……If you do this then it also stands to reason that you will only naturally further divide it and complicate it more as more data is gathered and more of these areas are identified. The foundation of our regulations should have us all starting and ending at the same date and any further restrictions made within that base framework.

Use the map below as a starting point……draw in the major rivers and then overlay it on an aerial map to identify habitat fragmentation and that will identify all the possible areas of isolation…..It doesn’t mean that you will find differences in each sub-unit……it will simply identify the areas where the potential exists for their to be a difference.

To even better understand what BSK was harping on in the first of this thread about natural selection dictating things after the fact…….What he was saying is that there is the potential for natural selection to still alter the rut timing within any one of these isolated pockets to fit what is best suited for that area well after the fact regardless of what was originally stocked there……The very reason that nature throws out a little variance in the population and it happens in a bell shaped curve when it comes to things like estrous timing is so that the population can evolve or adjust over time to changing conditions……If something about early Jan begins to heavily favor those fawns over late Jan then the rut would slowly shift over time……That’s how natural selection and evolution works and how species are able to change and adapt.

Now here’s the thing…….There probably aren’t many areas that have likely been effected by any kind of over riding environmental influences different from other areas to cause “evolutionary shifts” of this type….. Most areas are likely just running true to how the stockings shook out…….However, its good to understand that the potential exists and how it would happen……because if you understand that then it opens up the can of worms that it IS possible for us humans to still change things by artificially creating an “influence”…….or restocking an isolated area of low density

How could we artificially influence natural selection???.....Let’s go back to the hypothetical example I used where we are going to take 25 does from Bankhead and transplant them into the middle of the Macon Co green area…….Now what would happen if next year I went in and heavily trapped coyotes in May and June around my release area just ahead of the early fawn drop and then I allowed the coyotes to fill back in over the next two months before the late fawns were dropped in late Aug early Sept……I just tilted the scales heavily in favor in the early droppers…..Now lets do that for the next five years……….ten years…….What would happen?

cc28………Something about the situation playing out in Bankhead that should be taken into consideration with this discussion is the habitat fragmentation that exists around Bankhead……I’m not overly familiar with that area but I bet you just looking at the landscape that you move from an area of higher deer density inside of that circle I’ve drawn of the interior to an area of lower deer density around the perimeter…..especially if we’re talking about doe groups…..I think Matt said this was so as well…..…One of the likely reasons that Bankhead is producing some toads on a regular basis is because what you likely have happening is there are some bucks living mostly in isolation and growing old in some hidey holes around the perimeter in low density spots where there may be little or no hunting happening because "there's no deer there". He moves into Bankhead for the rut and then moves back to his core area afterwards. Have you ever heard about big bucks existing on the fringe of a population? I think that is due to the potential to grow old in an area where the carrying capacity is well below max.
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Difficult terrain and low density certainly play a factor in a bucks ability to get some age and also maximize his genetic potential. Just like hunting overlooked places, or a spot everyone passes up can pay off. Bucks that make it to maturity aren't generally moving far during daylight and seek out a core area that can support them without having to do so, or be harrassed/pressured. Sometimes thats no more than 100 or 200 yds from pressure. For instance, the private parcels scattered that dont get hunted give them plenty of places to hide, and they may only give an opportunity during the rut. Or you may get lucky and catch them getting back a little late at first light. Then they spend the daylight hours on those few inaccessible acres. Not a quitters game.

I would think you'd want blast every doe you ran across for 5 years on a wide spread level, then stock and use that strategy if your intent was to make a major shift. Otherwise, you'd end up with a much less defined rut... which is what some places seem to deal with already..... it's a rabbit hole of speculation man.

This also goes into why I say that you don’t have to go into most areas and heavily try to kill does …..Basically doe killing in many areas likely just creates a decreased expansion rate of doe groups on the fringes……I’m not saying that we should completely shut down doe killing but just to illustrate the concepts at play I’m saying you could and it would work out just fine in most instances……Why??......Because the doe groups on the fringes where expansion is trying to happen are going to take on the brunt of your doe fawn mortality for the area through trying to expand…..either through road mortality or lack of quality fawning cover where fragmentation breaks the habitat…..maybe even higher coyote populations in the more open pasture/ag perimeter. Doe group expansion happens on the fringes driven by the amount of social stress between doe groups toward the middle of the population. A bunch of doe killing in the middle just slows any expansion on the fringes and replaces that mortality.....at least to an extent

If you only had 25 does going hot in the middle of Macon Co in late November I’m guessing you would have a pretty tight and intense November rut with or without the other does……lol!.....How many bucks do you think would be on those 25 does? ...You know actually I’m pretty sure I saw a really similar thing play out one year on the back end as I had a couple does that must have been the very last ones around hot.

Any expansion fluctuation of doe populations is likely happening during the fall/winter as food resources become more constrained. Coyotes are shifting patterns during this time to key in on the natural perimeter road mortality that is occurring as a result….They are also likely keying in on the poor fawning around the perimeter of fragmentation breaks during fawning season.

You should be able to measure a rate or amount of female road mortality that is occurring and assess an area’s deer population in relation to carrying capacity…….As does approach carrying capacity in the center of their population then road mortality is likely to increase on the perimeter…….Or another simplified way of looking at this is that if you aren’t seeing much doe road mortality on the perimeter of a pocket then you aren’t pushing carrying capacity limits within it and vice versa.....a population that WAS pushing carrying capacity limits would see more significant doe road mortality.

Got ya, I was under the impression you were talking about a complete rut shift. But yes you should certainly be able to create an intense window if you kept those does within a certain area. In theory.

That's why late rut, or 2nd cycle is my favorite time to hunt if I could choose any two weeks, it would be on the back end. The older bucks, if they slip up, that will be the time. Same principle without transplanted deer.