I've taken up serpents both poisionous and non. I hold them behind the head so they don't bite me though.

Sorry,but I just have to disagree with you.You are simply trying to make the Bible fit your personal belief system.There are miracles and healings today,even documented cases of raising the dead.God is the same today,yesterday,and forever.Just because you don't see the same results the apostles had ,doesn't mean God's power and his willingness to use it today has passed away.It is possible you don't see it because you believe it isn't for us today and has passed away.Jesus could do no mighty work in his own country because of their unbelief Mark 6:5 and Matt 13:58.

Trying to make 1 Cor.say that God has created a new dispensation in which he is out of the Miracle and healing business is quite an extrapolation.Don't you think God would make such a thing much clearer.

There are also many counterfeit miracles just as there are also counterfeit $100 bills.It doesn't make them all fake though.

I have simply stated what I believe.I would hate to believe in a Savior who had lost his power or was simply unwilling to use it to help me just because I was born in the wrong century.I don't expect to change your mind and that makes me very sad for you.

I do wish you the best and since I don't think it's productive for Christians to argue about beliefs they are unwilling to change,I will probably not post again in this thread.Hopefully,we can agree that Jesus is Lord and the acceptance of His sacrifice for us,is the only way to salvation.If we can agree on that,you are my brother,and all else pales in comparisson.

I don't believe...... Na I ain't getting in this one. I'll have some popcorn and a root beer.

Yea I will a little. I see debilitated people everyday. You send me a hearer to ride around with me. I got 20 patients that are unable to walk. He can just come around with me and heal them. Wait. No. I'd be out of a job then. Never mind.

I would never say,I could heal anyone.Even Jesus said,it was the Father in him who did the work.Even Jesus didn't heal everyone he came in contact with,just read the scriptures I referenced above.

I believe it is God's will to heal everyone.Maby we can agree that it is God's will to save everyone.Everyone will not be saved,just as everyone will not be healed.That doesn't mean it's not God's will to save them....or to heal them.

One of the comments below the article:

“I went to a snake handling service once, sat between two older men the paster had big ole box full of snakes, he just put his leg in and started kicking those snakes around, the old guy on my left looked over at the other guy and said man he has got the faith, the other guy said yea he's got a wood leg too.”

In my posts, I laid out some ideas that you've failed to address in your answers... you simply claim I'm making 1 Corinthians 13 say something it doesn't say... and you frankly question my integrity in handling the Scriptures. It's one thing to say someone has made a mistake... it's another to accuse someone of twisting Scripture to fit a preconceived belief system. I believe what I believe not because I'm "conditioned" to... my belief system is a result of comprehensive study of the Scriptures. To clarify, I'll ask these questions.

(1) How did people after Christ's resurrection receive miraculous powers? Was it given to them directly from God when they believed or was it by the laying on of the apostle's hands?
(2) IF Scripture verifies that it was via the latter, what would occur when all of the apostles died?
(3) What were the purposes for miracles performed by believers in the New Testament after Christ's resurrection?
(4) Could those same purposes be accomplished when the books of the New Testament were collected and made available to all?

Does God perform miraculous things today? Certainly! But believers today do not have the ability to perform things which were done in New Testament times... not when one understands the nature of miracles in those days. And BTW, even people who had no faith in Jesus' day could readily see and understand when miracles were done (Pharisees/scribes acknowledged Jesus did miracles but attributed the power to Satan). So the fact that I don't "possess enough faith to see them" doesn't square with what the Bible teaches.

Do wish to comment on this paragraph separately from my post above. I always believe healthy, passionate discussion is a positive thing on a public forum. People who are not involved in the discussion can weigh the evidence for themselves... and may hear things that they never may have considered in the past.

IMO, I don't think people look unfavorably at this kind of discussion of biblical matters. They do, however, look unfavorably at the ones that end up with petty name-calling, questioning of sincerity, or an attempt to belittle someone on the other side of the discussion. If what I believe can't hold up to an examination of Scripture, it can and should be exposed for what it is... falsehood. Typically, it's very easy to believe something to be true... but proving it by God's word to be true is another thing entirely. I am thankful for the opportunity to discuss this issue... my hope is that at least one person reading this thread will compare Scripture to what I've said... and as a result will realize what's so often done today in religion in regards to snakes/poison/tongues/etc. is totally different from what it was in the 1st Century. 2 Timothy 2:15

Now that's funny rite there!

You know what old Wendy bag well said bout them sanging at one of those snake handling churches, when they tried to get him to hold one,

Wendy says the lord ain't told him to hold one so he ain't holding one...... I am with wendy



I'd be looking for the door

I would not choose to worship this way, but I don't feel that it is my place to criticize them for doing it either. I bet there are people in those churches that really love the Lord and for whatever reason that they are doing God's will. Maybe part of that, is to test some of our hearts.

Let me first say that I don't mean to question your integrity.I simply believe you are wrong.I don't mind a discussion as long as we are civil with each other.

1.The same way they recieved before Christ's resurrection.It has never been an individual's power but God working through them.Even Jesus said it was the father doing the works.Just one example is Ananias,who had no apostles hands laid on him,laying his hands on Paul to recieve his sight.Mark 16 says these signs shall follow them that are babtized and believe.It does not say,these signs shall follow you 11 and thoes you lay hands on untill I have time to have a bible written,so I won't need signs anymore.

2.God's plan all along was to live inside all Christians through the Holy Spirit and have his power and influence increase in the earth not to have it fade away as the apostles died off.

3.Same purpose before Christ and after his resurrection,to confirm his word.A better question might be the purpose of his word.God has always made covenant and released his word into the earth for the benefit of his creation.

4.Certinly,you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

I didn't go through and list a lot of scripture today because I am limited on time untill next week.I am sure you will try to find a lot of scripture to prove me wrong.I am just as sure I can use the same scripture and see it a different way.I'm not sure we will accomplish anything in the end.

Let me ask you a couple questions as well.

1.What gifts of the Holy Spirit do you believe have passed away? I find it very difficult to understand why you would think we don't need thoes gifts today.You will have to do better than 1 Cor. 13 as I have already explained that above.

2.Do you think God still heals today?

As to your last statement,what do you attribute miracles to today? Your arguement doesn't hold to what I said.Do you expect God to do miracles in a church full of people who believe he won't? What would you say if I brought to you different people who claim to have received miracles, healings and even had children raised from the dead? Would your answers be similar to the Pharisees?

Please know that I don't ask just to anger you.I truly believe that (ALL OF THAT IS PASSED AWAY) type of teaching has robbed God's people.Let's look at it from both sides a moment.If I am wrong,all I have done is incourage people to believe God.All I believe is that God will still do for his people EVERYTHING he has promised in his word,nothing more but nothing less.Now,if you are wrong,as I see it,someone might believe that God would perform a promise they had read in their bible,but you would tell them,..sorry that passed away when the last apostle died.

The fundamental premise you hold is that people today perform miracles the same way they did in the 1st Century. My premise is that people today don't have the ability to do them... but God works them in a way that would be called "providence".

A study of miracles in the 1st Century reveals much. If you go back and search the New Testament, miracles were utilized for three main purposes.
(1) To confirm Christ's authority over Satan (Mark 6:7; Luke 4:33-36; Luke 5:20-24)
(2) To confirm a message was from God, not man (John 20:30-31; Luke 9:1-2; Hebrews 2:2-4)
(3) To equip the believers for the work of ministry/allow them to grow (Ephesians 4:11-16; 1 Corinthians 12:1-31)

So called "miracles" of today don't match up to what Scripture says about them in the New Testament. Notice a few discrepancies:
(1) Nowhere do you find that miracles in the NT were "expressions" of a person's individual faith. In fact, when you look at miracles in the book of Acts (a "portrait" of early Christians), never do you see people performing miracles for that type of reason.
(2) Tongues of "today" are giberish... not a known language. In Acts 2:4-11 and 1 Corinthians 14:6-11, it's clear that "tongues" were a language never studied by the one possessing the gift.
(3) Tongues in a church assembly should never be used unless those who were present could understand via an interpreter (1 Corinthians 14:27-28).

Regarding your questions, here's my reply.

(1) All of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit as seen in the NT have passed away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 and Ephesians 4:11-13 indicated the gifts were needed until the church would become mature... be able to exemplify the fulness of Christ. Today, the word of God provides those same things... something they didn't have access to as we have today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). BTW, you haven't satisfactorily made a case that 1 Corinthians is only about love... notice the references in my second post.
(2) God heals today... but he doesn't do it via a person praying to Him and then telling them they are healed as seen in Acts 9:36ff. But again, you have to go back and study why miracles were utilized in the 1st place in the New Testament. Miracles were for far more than just healing/helping a person... there was a broader purpose.

I respect your willingness to discuss the matter... please realize my beliefs come from a total study of miracles in the New Testament, not a study of just one or two passages. Simply put, today we have a very important tool at our disposal that 1st Century people did not have... the completed written word of God. And remember our Lord said those who were unwilling to believe the written word would not believe if they witnessed a notable miracle (Luke 16:31). Understand I'm not limiting God... I'm simply saying that this is how God has chosen to operate in our day and age. IF he wanted, he could equip anyone he wanted to do anything with power... power from his hand alone. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss God's word.

To BamaRich and R H Clark, very good thought provoking discussion. Thanks, I needed it.

Yesterday a black friend of mine was picking peas for me and I mentioned the snake deal. His response was you don't see no black people handling snakes and you don't see no black people chaseing down allergaters neither. So I got to thinking I am as smart as that black guy.