Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc”

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Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” #3327878 01/19/21 07:20 PM 01/19/21 07:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2013 Posts: 8,423 A Atoler OP 14 point
Atoler OP 14 point A Joined: Feb 2013 Posts: 8,423	Chamberlain and I had a little discussion on Pinhoti’s Instagram page. A few take aways. 1. He is making a guess, that he calls a hypothesis. 2. He claims he has never said that hunters impact poult production. 3. But something’s gotta be done....... Last edited by Atoler; 01/19/21 07:38 PM.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327886 01/19/21 07:26 PM 01/19/21 07:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 38,489 N. Bama 257wbymag Boo Boo Head
257wbymag Boo Boo Head Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 38,489 N. Bama	Well. If only outback were around. That’s extremely difficult to follow. Quietly killing turkeys where youre not!!! My tank full of give a fraks been runnin on empty I'm the paterfamilias

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: 257wbymag] #3327891 01/19/21 07:32 PM 01/19/21 07:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2013 Posts: 8,423 A Atoler OP 14 point
Atoler OP 14 point A Joined: Feb 2013 Posts: 8,423	Originally Posted by 257wbymag Well. If only outback were around. That’s extremely difficult to follow. Post image keeps swapping the order. Trying to straighten it out.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327905 01/19/21 07:42 PM 01/19/21 07:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 5,367 Georgia and Missouri Semo 12 point
Semo 12 point Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 5,367 Georgia and Missouri	Just because something makes it past the peer review process doesn't mean it is gospel. Experiential knowledge and local knowledge would help greatly in these efforts. One issue is that "the experts" are often the ones that have learned the scientific method and not the ones with the most knowledge on the subject.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327909 01/19/21 07:45 PM 01/19/21 07:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2015 Posts: 931 Piney Ridge G Gobl4me 6 point
Gobl4me 6 point G Joined: Apr 2015 Posts: 931 Piney Ridge	Think about how many things science / Biology has established and then changed

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327913 01/19/21 07:49 PM 01/19/21 07:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2014 Posts: 7,954 sj22 14 point
sj22 14 point Joined: Jan 2014 Posts: 7,954	You’re right about the decoys. That works save a bunch of turkeys and they know that but it’s about the money

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327914 01/19/21 07:50 PM 01/19/21 07:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL poorcountrypreacher Booner
poorcountrypreacher Booner Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL	Good job in making your points. Isn't he the guy that said that AL was going to look like Arkansas in 10 years when he spoke to the CAB? What he said to you looks like some serious backtracking from the proclamations he made at that meeting. Let me again ask everyone to write a letter to the CAB. I am convinced that we have a really good chance to win this fight, but we need more folks to speak up. All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327922 01/19/21 07:54 PM 01/19/21 07:54 PM
Joined: May 2010 Posts: 5,936 Cullman C CKyleC (Can't Keep It Up...)
CKyleC (Can't Keep It Up...) C Joined: May 2010 Posts: 5,936 Cullman	"hunting activity influences how turkeys move and behave" "can be negatively impacted by the removal of dominant birds early in the breeding season" "it's plausible how we harvest this bird could influence reproduction"....... "I've never said hunters have a negative impact" Statements like these are why I always assume these folks have an ulterior motive....that's a lot of double talk and beating around the bush that I quoted. "In Alabama, we prefer to kill small bucks on big properties"-Turkey247

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Semo] #3327931 01/19/21 08:01 PM 01/19/21 08:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL poorcountrypreacher Booner
poorcountrypreacher Booner Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL	Originally Posted by Semo Just because something makes it past the peer review process doesn't mean it is gospel. Experiential knowledge and local knowledge would help greatly in these efforts. One issue is that "the experts" are often the ones that have learned the scientific method and not the ones with the most knowledge on the subject. And look carefully at all the 5 points that he made. The first 4 aren't even controversial; any turkey hunter could have told him that. But there is no evidence that those things affect reproduction. So there are fewer gobbles per day when turkeys are hunted - so what? A hen only needs to be bred once to be fertile. And then the way he worded his conclusion in point 5 starts out with "it's plausible". That is one heck of a long way from the idea that it's proven. But the way they repeat it over and over makes most people ignore all his qualifiers. He is one of the guys who wrote the letter during the last turkey season warning that Covid was gonna have disastrous effects on reproduction because so many gobblers were being killed. Instead, we've had the greatest hatch of the modern era. I think you would have to go back to the Indian days to find a year when this many poults were produced in Alabama. All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327951 01/19/21 08:17 PM 01/19/21 08:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2014 Posts: 7,954 sj22 14 point
sj22 14 point Joined: Jan 2014 Posts: 7,954	I gotta get my letters in the mail

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327966 01/19/21 08:28 PM 01/19/21 08:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 26,513 Helena 3 3toe Talking Turkey
3toe Talking Turkey 3 Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 26,513 Helena	I’d second outlawing decoys. That would mean fewer hunters in the woods. I correlate the legality of decoys with the spike in the number of hunters. Some folks can’t hunt any other way and wound quit if they couldn’t use decoys. I say this not for any biological reason but just to reduce the competition. I’m no biologist but I’ve always thought 3 things determined if you held turkeys. Habitat, natural food sources, and dry weather during the nesting season. Lose any of those and I’ve typically seen a decline in the population. At least around central Al. Can’t speak for the rest of the state. Reducing predators is an added bonus if you can do it. But I’ve hunted places that always had plenty of turkeys without removing predators. Last edited by 3toe; 01/19/21 08:32 PM.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: sj22] #3327967 01/19/21 08:28 PM 01/19/21 08:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL poorcountrypreacher Booner
poorcountrypreacher Booner Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL	Originally Posted by sj22 I gotta get my letters in the mail Time is running out. I don't know when the next meeting will be. They used to have one in February. Anyone know? I expect it to be virtual and not well publicized. If they allow the public to have 3 minutes per person, we need to fill the place up. Atoler, you need to go and just read those points he made and explain there is no way they should make major changes based on that. All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327975 01/19/21 08:32 PM 01/19/21 08:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 38,489 N. Bama 257wbymag Boo Boo Head
257wbymag Boo Boo Head Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 38,489 N. Bama	If decoys are illegal then turkey hunting out of a pop up blind for any able bodied person should be banned too. All then ban box calls cause they make it easy too. Quietly killing turkeys where youre not!!! My tank full of give a fraks been runnin on empty I'm the paterfamilias

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: poorcountrypreacher] #3327989 01/19/21 08:48 PM 01/19/21 08:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 5,367 Georgia and Missouri Semo 12 point
Semo 12 point Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 5,367 Georgia and Missouri	Originally Posted by poorcountrypreacher Originally Posted by Semo Just because something makes it past the peer review process doesn't mean it is gospel. Experiential knowledge and local knowledge would help greatly in these efforts. One issue is that "the experts" are often the ones that have learned the scientific method and not the ones with the most knowledge on the subject. And look carefully at all the 5 points that he made. The first 4 aren't even controversial; any turkey hunter could have told him that. But there is no evidence that those things affect reproduction. So there are fewer gobbles per day when turkeys are hunted - so what? A hen only needs to be bred once to be fertile. And then the way he worded his conclusion in point 5 starts out with "it's plausible". That is one heck of a long way from the idea that it's proven. But the way they repeat it over and over makes most people ignore all his qualifiers. He is one of the guys who wrote the letter during the last turkey season warning that Covid was gonna have disastrous effects on reproduction because so many gobblers were being killed. Instead, we've had the greatest hatch of the modern era. I think you would have to go back to the Indian days to find a year when this many poults were produced in Alabama. I'm 100% in agreement with you. The issue is that as biologists sometimes the line is blurred into policy and management considerations. And as much as policy people say it, science doesn't "tell" us anything. It is just a tool (a good one) to help us understand stuff. Problem comes in that most phenomena are more complicated than our sampling and/or modeling are designed for. If I was a betting man I'd look at nest predation (and poult survival) with temp and precipitation during peak nesting. Alabama spring fires would also concern me and density of poultry farms/manure spreading. But that's just me.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Atoler] #3327990 01/19/21 08:49 PM 01/19/21 08:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,162 In The Stack G General 14 point
General 14 point G Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,162 In The Stack	I think if you change the season to protect male turkeys you’re gonna make it harder for most folks to kill them which will lead to lack of interest in it which leads to less management. Or folks will get the wheat seed and scratch feed out and ambush away. I just wish the state would let me manage my place as I see fit and if I screw it up I’ll be out of the turkey hunting business. "I'd rather go down the river with seven studs than with a hundred ****heads" - Colonel Charlie Beckwith Founder Delta Force

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Semo] #3328160 01/19/21 11:30 PM 01/19/21 11:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL poorcountrypreacher Booner
poorcountrypreacher Booner Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,185 Sylacauga, AL	Originally Posted by Semo Originally Posted by poorcountrypreacher Originally Posted by Semo Just because something makes it past the peer review process doesn't mean it is gospel. Experiential knowledge and local knowledge would help greatly in these efforts. One issue is that "the experts" are often the ones that have learned the scientific method and not the ones with the most knowledge on the subject. And look carefully at all the 5 points that he made. The first 4 aren't even controversial; any turkey hunter could have told him that. But there is no evidence that those things affect reproduction. So there are fewer gobbles per day when turkeys are hunted - so what? A hen only needs to be bred once to be fertile. And then the way he worded his conclusion in point 5 starts out with "it's plausible". That is one heck of a long way from the idea that it's proven. But the way they repeat it over and over makes most people ignore all his qualifiers. He is one of the guys who wrote the letter during the last turkey season warning that Covid was gonna have disastrous effects on reproduction because so many gobblers were being killed. Instead, we've had the greatest hatch of the modern era. I think you would have to go back to the Indian days to find a year when this many poults were produced in Alabama. I'm 100% in agreement with you. The issue is that as biologists sometimes the line is blurred into policy and management considerations. And as much as policy people say it, science doesn't "tell" us anything. It is just a tool (a good one) to help us understand stuff. Problem comes in that most phenomena are more complicated than our sampling and/or modeling are designed for. If I was a betting man I'd look at nest predation (and poult survival) with temp and precipitation during peak nesting. Alabama spring fires would also concern me and density of poultry farms/manure spreading. But that's just me. You may not have been around when we did it 7 or 8 years ago in this forum, but we did a scientific study that absolutely proved that spreading untreated chicken manure was wiping out turkeys. I can probably dig it out of my files if anyone new wants to see it. The Chicken Mafia buried the study and silenced us, but I think it was more scientific than some of the stuff being put out now. All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: poorcountrypreacher] #3328164 01/19/21 11:35 PM 01/19/21 11:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 5,367 Georgia and Missouri Semo 12 point
Semo 12 point Joined: Aug 2018 Posts: 5,367 Georgia and Missouri	Originally Posted by poorcountrypreacher Originally Posted by Semo Originally Posted by poorcountrypreacher Originally Posted by Semo Just because something makes it past the peer review process doesn't mean it is gospel. Experiential knowledge and local knowledge would help greatly in these efforts. One issue is that "the experts" are often the ones that have learned the scientific method and not the ones with the most knowledge on the subject. And look carefully at all the 5 points that he made. The first 4 aren't even controversial; any turkey hunter could have told him that. But there is no evidence that those things affect reproduction. So there are fewer gobbles per day when turkeys are hunted - so what? A hen only needs to be bred once to be fertile. And then the way he worded his conclusion in point 5 starts out with "it's plausible". That is one heck of a long way from the idea that it's proven. But the way they repeat it over and over makes most people ignore all his qualifiers. He is one of the guys who wrote the letter during the last turkey season warning that Covid was gonna have disastrous effects on reproduction because so many gobblers were being killed. Instead, we've had the greatest hatch of the modern era. I think you would have to go back to the Indian days to find a year when this many poults were produced in Alabama. I'm 100% in agreement with you. The issue is that as biologists sometimes the line is blurred into policy and management considerations. And as much as policy people say it, science doesn't "tell" us anything. It is just a tool (a good one) to help us understand stuff. Problem comes in that most phenomena are more complicated than our sampling and/or modeling are designed for. If I was a betting man I'd look at nest predation (and poult survival) with temp and precipitation during peak nesting. Alabama spring fires would also concern me and density of poultry farms/manure spreading. But that's just me. You may not have been around when we did it 7 or 8 years ago in this forum, but we did a scientific study that absolutely proved that spreading untreated chicken manure was wiping out turkeys. I can probably dig it out of my files if anyone new wants to see it. The Chicken Mafia buried the study and silenced us, but I think it was more scientific than some of the stuff being put out now. I would be interested in reading that.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: poorcountrypreacher] #3328166 01/19/21 11:38 PM 01/19/21 11:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2015 Posts: 299 AL B Beak_Buster 4 point
Beak_Buster 4 point B Joined: Feb 2015 Posts: 299 AL	Originally Posted by poorcountrypreacher If they allow the public to have 3 minutes per person, we need to fill the place up. Atoler, you need to go and just read those points he made and explain there is no way they should make major changes based on that. I agree on flooding the meeting, it would at least get the point across that we were taking the situation seriously. Count me in!

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Beak_Buster] #3328274 01/20/21 07:04 AM 01/20/21 07:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,851 LASW turkey247 12 point
turkey247 12 point Joined: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,851 LASW	Originally Posted by Beak_Buster Originally Posted by poorcountrypreacher If they allow the public to have 3 minutes per person, we need to fill the place up. Atoler, you need to go and just read those points he made and explain there is no way they should make major changes based on that. I agree on flooding the meeting, it would at least get the point across that we were taking the situation seriously. Count me in! At least somebody spend 3 minutes showing them what a map of the state looks like and a little discussion about how green up in AL is about a month process from south to north. Always seems ignored.

Re: Interesting discussion I had with The “TurkeyDoc” [Re: Beak_Buster] #3329012 01/20/21 07:58 PM 01/20/21 07:58 PM
Joined: May 2010 Posts: 5,936 Cullman C CKyleC (Can't Keep It Up...)
CKyleC (Can't Keep It Up...) C Joined: May 2010 Posts: 5,936 Cullman	Originally Posted by Beak_Buster Originally Posted by poorcountrypreacher If they allow the public to have 3 minutes per person, we need to fill the place up. Atoler, you need to go and just read those points he made and explain there is no way they should make major changes based on that. I agree on flooding the meeting, it would at least get the point across that we were taking the situation seriously. Count me in! I'm in. When and where? I will be glad to provide my experience over the past 7yrs on my property and the surrounding properties. I'll be glad to show current pics, also. Parts of my county didnt even have a season until 2yrs ago "In Alabama, we prefer to kill small bucks on big properties"-Turkey247

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