Originally Posted by Joe4majors
Originally Posted by jwalker77
Originally Posted by Joe4majors
Originally Posted by jwalker77
Joe, I just dont agree with alot of your theories. That does not make me ignorant or unlearned. You dont even know me so surely you couldnt begin to tell me what ive studied, but yet you do and that goes right along with this pattern of passing your opinion off as fact.


You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't mean that [fill in the blank] is wrong. Bring something to the table other than "scientists are making up stuff, my 6th grade science teacher told me _____, there is not 100% perfect consensus on _______, I know nothing about it therefore it's wrong" and the like and I'll listen to you all day long. Taking quantitative measurements on something is not "opinion." You're using the word "theory" as if you're talking about the existence of Nessie. A theory for actual scientists is the explanation of natural phenomenon based on the best observations, measurements, etc. that we can make. Theories are refined as we get better observations, measurements, etc. CO2 dramatically increasing is not an opinion or theory, it's a observation.


The gas bubbles in the ice you mentioned. Exactly how do you know how old that gas bubble is or the ice the bubble is in. How do you know there wasnt something going on on the particular day the bubble formed that caused co2 levels to be higher than other days that year? The theory you are presenting is not the only theory out there explaining what youre talking about. The other theories also have evidence supporting them and scientist who believe in them. So far you have some gas in a bubble. I have no problem with the level of co2 in your bubble. But tell me how it got there, what was going on that day or even how long ago it was without a doubt? Thats where the theory comes into play, not the measurement of the co2.


Let's start with the age of the ice/bubbles/CO2. If you cut a tree down, it is very straightforward that the number of tree rings is directly related to the age of the tree. 35 rings means the tree is 35 years old. Trees are fairly simple as they grow during the spring/summer and go dormant during the winter, which results in contrasting layers and easy to see annual rings. Yeah, some trees don't make rings very well and trees typically don't live very long.

If you take a core into an ice cap (Greenland, Antartica), you also find "rings" in the form of layers, but these layers represent 1 year of snowfall. Fresh snow starts of soft, fluffy, and mostly air. As that layer of snow gets buried by more seasons worth of snow, pressure from the snow above compacts the snow (what was once maybe a couple feet of snow is now maybe 6 inches of snow). It's more of a slushie texture. More snow builds up above, more pressure, more compaction, and you end up with a layer of ice maybe a half inch thick or thereabouts. But it's not just pure ice, air bubbles are throughout the ice and preserve a sample of the atmosphere when that layer of snow was first deposited.

[Linked Image]

Take a core in 2019 for example and start counting layers down and you get the age of each layer, similar to counting the rings in a tree. Valid questions would be: How do you know each layer is one year? What if there are a bunch of layers missing? Confidence is added when you find anomalies in the ice core, such as a thin layer of volcanic ash. If you're in Greenland, then that ash layer might be due to a volcanic eruption in nearby Iceland. Maybe the eruption was in 1950 (just making up a random date), and the ash layer was 69 layers/years down. Maybe you find another ash layer that's a couple hundred layers down that's really close to a historical eruption, but they are off by 3-4 years. Do you throw out the whole idea because somewhere along the line you counted what should have been two separate layers as just 1? The age errors on these ice core records are usually accurate to about 1 or 2%. Ash layer shown below.

[Linked Image]

How do we know that something funky didn't happen on a particular year? Valid question. Scientists don't put all their eggs in one basket. We've collected many many ice cores from Greenland and Antartica and get similar records of CO2 and other gasses trapped in the ice. Are there subtle differences? Sure. Does not being an exact perfect match negate their records? No. Also, none of these analyzes are of a single air bubble.

For what it is worth, this is research that has been going on for decades, not some emerging science that we're still trying to figure out. If you want the research papers I can get them to you somehow. Below are a couple citations. For testing the reliability of the measurements, one would simply need to measure the gas trapped in a layer of snow from a particular year, let's say 1970, and then compare it to the CO2 concentration measured directly from the atmosphere from the same year. Then do the same for other years. The atmosphere is mixed well enough that the CO2 concentration in Alabama is about the same as it is in Hawaii, and Greenland, and Antartica, etc. for any given time.

U. Siegenthaler & H. Oeschger (1987) Biospheric CO2 emissions during the past 200 years reconstructed by deconvolution of ice core data, Tellus B: Chemical and Physical Meteorology, 39:1-2, 140-154, DOI: 10.3402/tellusb.v39i1-2.15331

1983 "Comparison of CO2 measurements by two laboratories on air from bubbles in polar ice" Nature

Here is a short video on the topic. Do we honestly think that people would go to some of the most miserable places on earth to collect these samples just to make up false or meaningless data?





The rings indicare times above freezing and times below freezing or snow then rain, or snow then ice. I can agree with that. I have read and listened to other scientists who feel this is a very poor way of judging periods of time. Kind of like tree rings being dry periods and wet periods, also a poor indicator of age. Some trees have been known to grow 8-10 sets of rings in a year. Over a large amount of time that could throw a study way off. I figured your answer would be counting rings or measuring some other levels in the ice which would lead to a whole nother circular reasoning argument. I really wish you had had something factual and for sure.