Originally Posted By: 49er
Quote:
(Bucktrot) Taking a few immature bucks out of a herd won't hurt it. A "GROUP" of hunters all killing immature bucks will hurt a herd! All "mature" bucks are trophies!! ....sorry, I get off on tangents!!!


(49er) Could you share the source of your research with us?

(49er) I would like to see the scientific studies you base your opinion on. I'm not interested in magazine articles.

(Bucktrot) 49er, I assume you don't support any restriction on buck harvest

(49er) Most of the deer management studies I've read conclude that having a balanced age structure of male deer is best. Why would you target only the older males if you want a balanced age structure?


*********************

My response - but I want to keep it short but there is so much to say about this subject.

Anyway, I'm going to cut-n-paste here but here's my philosophy taken from the QDMA website, to which I have been a member since 1994.

Quality Deer Management (QDM) is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints. This approach typically involves the protection of young bucks (yearlings and some 2.5 year-olds) combined with an adequate harvest of female deer to maintain a healthy population in balance with existing habitat conditions and landowner desires. This level of deer management involves the production of quality deer (bucks, does, and fawns), quality habitat, quality hunting experiences, and, most importantly, quality hunters.

A successful QDM program requires an increased knowledge of deer biology and active participation in management. This level of involvement extends the role of the hunter from mere consumer to manager. The progression from education to understanding, and finally, to respect; bestows an ethical obligation upon the hunter to practice sound deer management. Consequently, to an increasing number of landowners and hunters, QDM is a desirable alternative to traditional management, which allows the harvest of any legal buck and few, if any, do
es.


In reading many post you've typed on aldeer.com 49er, you're against any restrictions/restraints/laws/management etc... when it comes to fish and game. Which leads me to ask... why don't you start a brand new thread and title it: "49er's philosophy on fish and game management." And, if you support laws regulating such, state your general foundation for fish and game laws.

Let me say this, I'm not a biologist. I'm also not a doctor, nor a builder, nor a farmer. HOWEVER, it's not hard to acquire a GREAT deal of knowledge on those subjects if you have the DESIRE and are willing to accept the general foundation/principles of a majority of educated practitioners in that field of study. So, armed through education, I can treat many of my own illnesses, maintain my own health, build a structure, take out a wall in my house and successfully plant my own garden and I don't mean just throwing seed in the ground but soil samples and having the best soil I can have for growing what I want!

With that said 49er, I accept what would be considered the general foundation and knowledge of hundreds of thousands of educated individuals in that field of study. But, I'm sure you'd ask your doctor for "studies" when he/she tells you that you need to have surgery to fix your broken leg with bone sticking out!!

So here's what I believe and have generally accepted as truth:

I do not "trophy" manage for deer. I "Quality" manage and there's a difference.
Immature bucks are very easy to kill, "IF THEY EXISTS and haven't already been killed."
I believe that a group of hunters on any given piece of property, without restraint, can kill a majority of the immature bucks on that property.
I believe that mature does in a given location, all come into estrus within the general timeframe. ***For the past two decades, studies conducted at UGA have attempted to unravel the mystery of how an estrous doe advertises her readiness to bucks in the area. Given that estrus or the “heat” period occurs only once per month and lasts only 24 to 36 hours.*** - Brian Murphy, Biologist and Director of the QDMA.
If there are not enough bucks to breed all the estrus does, the does go out of estrus and come back into estrus 28-30 days later. (I'm not wasting my time to quote a study on this and the fact that I'm saying it 49er, should spur you to research this statement if you disagree!)
This has been referred as the "second rut" and the aforementioned is repeated at least three times, maybe more but I am not sure what happens if a doe isn't bred! Found out and let me know 49er!
The 2nd/3rd estrus cycle adversely results in fawns being born later in the year thus forcing the mother and fawn to be exposed to less nutritious browse b/c as you know 49er, as the year goes along, browse starts to burn up as droughts occur and the plants' growing season plateaus. You do know 49er that a "growing" plant is more nutritious than a non-growing plant, right? No study to back here but again, research it if you don't believe me!

Let's talk about a lengthened rut and the stress it causes on the few bucks in your herd that are left. Which had your rather have. A condensed rut where most all does are bred on their first cycle and all does are bred on their 2nd cycle and the bucks can get back to eating and eating and maintain their health. OR... a long rutting process where bucks rut (bucks had rather go without eating than miss out of breeding. That's not hard to believe is it?) This long rutting process takes its toll on bucks for reasons I shouldn't have to quote.

Let's talk about the late-born fawns as a result of does being bred 30, 60 and 90 days after their first estrus cycle! Poor nutrition and stress on both mother and fawns. I'd rather have my fawns be born as early as possible (gestation period approx 200 days) than during the absolute stress period when browse is burned up and the acorns haven't dropped yet (if there's an acorn crop). These late born fawns have to play "catch up" and let's say the fawn is a buck... he'll go into the spring green-up with a lower body weight and will be behind his counterpart who may have been born much earlier and gotten the jump on him b/c of obvious reasons I should not have to point out, 49er.

I wonder what a really late-born fawn buck will look like and what kind of antlers he'll have his second fall. Afterall, he entered the spring way under weight and smaller than his buddy who was born two/three months before him! Would he be considered a "cull" to some people? It is believed that the late-born fawn does, eventually, catch up but wouldn't you want to alleviate late-born fawns altogether?!?!?

Spoiler had a great example of the age structure of bucks... Graduating seniors of high school always have a recruitment of juniors that will take their place when the seniors "graduate".

I can tell you this and you don't need a study.... immature bucks are very easy to kill. (Again, but only if they exists!!!!) Mature bucks are very hard to kill and the only way to increase your chances would be to have more of them!!

A sex balanced deer herd is important. Nature already slants it in favor of bucks as, if I remember that study I can't quote, bucks make up 51% of fawns. There are other studies that support the greater mortality of bucks and no, I can't quote them but conventional wisdom would support that belief.

Here's the difference in you and me 49er. I am more concerned with my deer herd's health and well-being more than my desire to pull the trigger. But I know this.... when I have a healthy deer herd and a sex-balanced deer herd with acceptable age structures of bucks, I know my hunting experiences will increase and I don't have to kill a buck to enjoy a day in the field.

Deer hunting is kinda like being married and being unselfish. If you both give, give, give to each other instead of always wanting to take, take, take.... what you get out of it by "giving" far outweighs what you'd "take" in the first place.

But here's the guarantee.... Mother Nature always holds up her end of the bargain whereas your marriage partner may not!

Last edited by Bucktrot; 02/04/12 09:13 AM.