Originally Posted By: ikillbux
Originally Posted By: jono23

Originally Posted By: poorcountrypreacher
Originally Posted By: ikillbux
Originally Posted By: FurFlyin
The only thing that concerns me about the Ark recreation and the young earth theory is that a few of the people that I know and go to church with that fully believe it, are so adamant about it that one in particular throws out sayings such as: "if you don't believe that the Creation event happened in 6 literal days, what other parts of the Bible do you not believe?" It's that type of "my way" thinking that drives wedges between believers. IMO, there is no place for that in Christianity. There's already a dump truck full of wedges that get driven between believers of different denominations, we don't need more. Like you, my faith isn't based on the Creation event, it's based on the Cross.


Fur, I want you to hear me saying this with a humorous tone of voice (I'm not jabbing at you), but that's what I call "Rodney King Christianity"....can't we all just get along? It isn't a matter of getting along, or I think what I want to say is I will subordinate getting along to being doctrinally sound. Guys, there are some things that are mysteries, and some things that aren't. The creation account is NOT a mystery, it isn't even remotely a debatable topic, and that's why this is such a big deal. There has never been a reason FROM SCRIPTURE for any man to even think it meant something other than a literal single day. This debate is ALWAYS and ONLY an attack on scripture, and (if I make no other point ever again on this site) you do not know God or His gospel without scripture. If it's common to twist the portion of scripture regarding the creation, then what makes you think you don't believe a twisted understanding of "the gospel"? Things that are mysteries are things that aren't in scripture. For example, what does Jesus look like? Should we do contemporary or traditional music? See where I'm going? It's not about the dogma of my opinion, it's very much like Martin Luther risking his very life to correct the theology of the mainstream church in that day. Actual scriptural accounts aren't matters of opinion, they are matters of theology, and (like I've been saying) a lack of theology will be the indictment of our generation. If it takes me (lovingly) disagreeing with others to defend scripture, then I must do so. Doctrine does divide, it's intent is to do so (like a two edged sword). Scripture is as clear about the literal 6-day creation as it is that we no longer need a mediator priest.

You know, oddly, I am far more tolerant of someone who is confident about wrong theology than I am someone who doesn't believe it matters. And I really bristle at the "there are just some things we can't know" remark. This usually comes from that person who just isn't interested in theology. There are innumerable answers in scripture, but we are so theology-averse today that we wouldn't know otherwise.


With that same humorous voice, I would argue that there is far, far more scriptural evidence for the idea that Jesus died for the sins of the world than there is for 24 hr days in Genesis 1. And yet you believe that Christ died only for the elect. I very seriously doubt that you reached that idea by simply reading the Bible - it was taught to you by another person. That's because it is entirely a man-made system that falls apart when held to the Light of the Word.

Sola scriptura? Get back to me after reading 1John 2:2. wink


Boom.


Alright, I said I would avoid this fray, but I can't control my compulsion grin crazy

First, just some philosophical points about cherry-picking singular verses, then I'll (as briefly as I can) explain how that verse in no way denies the election of saints.

I am adamantly against the practice of pulling out singular verses as some "end all / be all" to any given debate. My primary opinion about Arminian theology is that it is nothing but eisegesis to begin with (you imputing YOUR preheld bias into the meaning), and you are basically certain to do that when using singular verses. Who was the audience? What was the topic? What was the authoritorial intent of the larger passage? Was it for all people at all times, or a specific group? Was it even referencing the topic you're using as ammunition for? Nothing concerns me more than the incessant "Oh yeah, what about XXX verse???" I know your motive is pure, to use scripture to defend your belief, but it's so dangerous to be uncontextual like that. I never use single verses, you'll almost always hear me speak in terms of "overall narratives" or "broader passages". You just can't form your whole doctrine from one verse!

Now, about 1 John 2:2 - Let's remember, the foremost battle that "most" of scripture always dealt with was that the Gentiles now have access to God. God wasn't just the God of the Jews. That Jesus' atoning work was for "every tribe, and tongue, and nation" (not for everybody in every tribe, tongue, and nation). That's the "overall narrative" I spoke about above. I could stop there, point is made. This is always a problem of lazy (or nasty) hermeneutics. But look at all of John's writings, his "shtick" seemed to predominantly be the nature of Christ's work being for all people groups (not just the Jews). And that's specifically what was being talked about in the broader passage surrounding 1 John 2:2. This is certainly how John's audience would have understood it. Now I don't want to be argumentative, I understand that when you read that verse alone, your view is logical (I don't disagree). But if you start waaaay before that and read waaaay past it, your view doesn't fit what's even being taught there. That's the "broader passage" I spoke about. If your view of a single verse is seemingly out of place compared the meta-narrative of all scripture, and surely from the more immediate surrounding passage, please reconsider and study that view.

One more "foremost battle" that most of scripture dealt with was Jesus' constant contrast between Christianity and Judaism. Remember, it wasn't the unchurched who demanded Jesus' death (they frankly didn't know or care), it was the church!!! And what they really didn't like wasn't Jesus' claim to be God (that's what they said, but it was a smokescreen), it was because Jesus removed their control and autonomy from their religion. The basest notion of sin is "self", it's the purest form of sin. I am my own god, I do the work, I am good, I am etc. Yes, Jesus is my savior, but I always attend church, I read my bible for an hour each morning, I am a deacon, I cut the grass at church, I don't cuss or drink, I, I, I. I owe Jesus, I perform, I accept Him or not, I. Jesus + my white-knuckle grip on obedience. This was the constant battle of the new Testament (heck, read Galatians!!!). And this Arminian notion of "I have free will" is nothing more than that age-old practice of Judaism. It stirs man's deepest idol to take away his "will" to accept or refuse Christ. THAT is your beef with my view, you certainly don't have a theological point.


IKB, those are good points about examining the biblical writer's audience and purpose, and its what I encourage everyone to do with all the books of the Bible. Unfortunately, it seems you found some bad literature when examining those things about 1 John. This book was written in the 90s, while Galatians was written in the 50s. A lot had happened in the four decades between them. The Temple and the OT sacrificial system has been gone for over 2 decades by the time 1 John was written. There is no longer any real controversy between Jewish and Gentile Christians. Judaism was barely hanging on by a thread. Every legitimate scholar I've ever read believed that the book was first sent to Gentile churches. The only one I've ever read who disputed it was a Calvinist scholar who was trying to figure out some way to keep 1 John from destroying his theological system, but it was obvious to everyone what he was doing. Why take a side like that?

1 John is a letter to the church. There is not a hint in it of problems between Jewish and Gentile Christians. It tells us the nature of God - He is Light, Love, and Life. Believers are His little children. He wants us to show love to each other. And it also tells us the Christ died for the sins of the world and He wants believers to be sure of their salvation. I am taking nothing out of context in saying that the book says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Why don't you sit down and read the book all the way through in one sitting? It won't take more than 20 minutes, and you will see clearly what I am talking about.

Can you not see the irony involved here as you try to say the 1 John doesn't mean what it plainly says, while at the same time demanding that others believers understand Genesis 1 exactly the way you have been taught? Can you really not see that? Apply the hermeneutical principals you outlined above to Genesis 1 and you might see that there could be other possibilities, and that's all I have ever said. I don't know the age of the earth and I don't believe the Bible ever tells us. If it is very young, that is fine with me. But if its very old, that doesn't bother me a bit. All it would do is show that there is more symbolism in Genesis than many thought, but it has nothing to do with my faith.

I'll say one more thing and then give you the last word; I know you want it. smile

It has always seemed to me that Calvinists demand an answer to every question. They have embraced a system that does provide answers, but in order to do that, they had to force Scripture to fit into their system. Now not all of it; just the parts that don't fit the system, and most of the system does fit. Some of my fellow pastors consider me something of an infidel because I seem to have strong Calvinist leanings. I do agree with a lot of your theology, but can never embrace the system. I am content to just believe the Bible as I understand it and it has been revealed to me, and I don't have to have a group to agree with me on every point.

I know you have to be careful about questioning any point of the system. Start doubting any part of it, and you will branded an Apostate who has departed from the faith, and that can be hard for most people. I would urge you to study on your own and not to blindly accept the Calvinist system, for it is deeply flawed.

A good day to all!


All the labor of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.